Flat Angle Shot On The 1B - How Do You Play It?

DrCue'sProtege

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
How do you posters play this shot? How do you go from the 1B to the 2B? There isn't a lot of angle on the 1B so you either have to hit it a little harder with a tip of right English and come off the bottom rail and then the side rail and then in behind the 2B for position.

Or do you try and just draw it across over to the side rail and out near the middle for the position on the 2B?

I've ran across this shot a few times lately and every time I have tried to force it around with a solid stroke and a little right English. I think I have either missed the shot on the 1B or missed position every time.

Thoughts?

r/DCP


https://pad-v1.chalkysticks.com/dee47.png
 
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Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
As shown it's a natural roll (rolling, no side) off the end rail around the 2 for the other corner pocket at the same end. Can't-miss shape.

If it wasn't quite a natural roll I'd add something to go the same way. Path of least resistance.

pj
chgo
 

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
Gold Member
Silver Member
How do you posters play this shot? How do you go from the 1B to the 2B? There isn't a lot of angle on the 1B so you either have to hit it a little harder with a tip of right English and come off the bottom rail and then spin in behind the 2B for position.

Or do you try and just draw it across over to the side rail and out near the middle for the position on the 2B?

I've ran across this shot a few times lately and every time I have tried to force it around with a solid stroke and a little right English. I think I have either missed the shot on the 1B or missed position every time.

Thoughts?

r/DCP


https://pad-v1.chalkysticks.com/dee47.png

I like the draw shot. The cut is close to a 3/4 ball shot, which looks like it would require top with a touch of right english to go 2 rails around for the 2. If you bump the 2 you might not like the results. You could also roll down to the rail and out a foot or so to cut the 2 into the far corner, rolling the cb to the 3.
 

BilliardsAbout

BondFanEvents.com
Silver Member
How do you posters play this shot? How do you go from the 1B to the 2B? There isn't a lot of angle on the 1B so you either have to hit it a little harder with a tip of right English and come off the bottom rail and then the side rail and then in behind the 2B for position.

Or do you try and just draw it across over to the side rail and out near the middle for the position on the 2B?

I've ran across this shot a few times lately and every time I have tried to force it around with a solid stroke and a little right English. I think I have either missed the shot on the 1B or missed position every time.

Thoughts?

r/DCP

https://pad-v1.chalkysticks.com/dee47.png

I slam the 1 into the pocket, coming into the 9-ball to kill the cue, then I bank the 2-ball one pocket into the side while drawing the cue ball six rails for perfect shape on the 3-ball.

Shouldn't a protege be taking lessons/have a mentor rather than ask us every question he can dream of here?
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
By the looks of the diagram I'd say high with enough right to get around the 2 ball. IMO, that's the best chance of getting the right angle to get to the 3. You just have to make sure you use enough right spin to get the cb around the 2 and out towards the middle. If you don't use any right, you may get stuck being straight-in on the two or the opposite angle.

I don't like drawing that shot. First, if you draw too much, you've got the possibility of the cross side pocket scratch. Second, it's harder to control the stopping point of the cue ball and you could wind up either too close to the 2 or the wrong angle on the 2 to get to the 3.
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Here's the image. It's better to upload images to AZB and show them directly in posts because otherwise when the imaging hosting site goes belly-up, the image vanishes and the thread is worthless.

CropperCapture[139].png
 

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
Gold Member
Silver Member
I slam the 1 into the pocket, coming into the 9-ball to kill the cue, then I bank the 2-ball one pocket into the side while drawing the cue ball six rails for perfect shape on the 3-ball.

Shouldn't a protege be taking lessons/have a mentor rather than ask us every question he can dream of here?

I like the posting of "What Would You Do?" type shots. I think it's a great way for players to expand their current knowledge by experimenting with options. Having a mentor or an instructor is a great plus. However, the student should eventually look beyond the knowledge and creativity of their mentor, coach, or instructor if mastery level is a goal. As Leonardo da Vinci wrote, "Poor is the pupil who does not surpass his master."

What I've noticed often is this: If a certified instructor or an established person of authority in pool/billiards says something, too many players assume it's fact, no other options, no other opinions or ideas welcome.

So I like these WWYD scenarios, because regardless of who you are, or who I am, or who anyone is, there are usually several solutions to these scenarios, and the best solution isn't determined by you or me or any instructor or mentor. It's determined by the individual player shooting the shot in a variety of ways to find what works best for him or her. So when a player asks, "What would you do?", usually the player is looking for a better way to see the shot, looking for multiple options, hoping to learn something that clicks for them.
 
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FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I like the posting of "What Would You Do?" type shots. I think it's a great way for players to expand their current knowledge by experimenting with options. Having a mentor or an instructor is a great plus. However, the student should eventually look beyond the knowledge and creativity of their mentor, coach, or instructor if mastery level is a goal. As Leonardo da Vinci wrote, "Poor is the pupil who does not surpass his master."

What I've noticed often is this: If a certified instructor or an established person of authority in pool/billiards says something, too many players assume it's fact, no other options, no other opinions or ideas welcome.

So I like these WWYD scenarios, because regardless of who you are, or who I am, or who anyone is, there are usually several solutions to these scenarios, and the best solution isn't determined by you or me or any instructor or mentor. It's determined by the individual player shooting the shot in a variety of ways to find what works best for him or her. So when a player asks, "What would you do?", usually the player is looking for a better way to see the shot, looking for multiple options, hoping to learn something that clicks for them.

That's all well and good, but if you get 10 top pros in a room and show them a diagram, 9 or even sometimes 10 out of 10 will choose the same way. The reason is because they have both the experience and the skill to make the most logical decision.

It's really not a bad idea to pay attention to people who know what they're doing.
 

sparkle84

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
One thing I'm definitly not doing is trying to draw above the 2 ball to play it in the corner near the 8. A number of things can go wrong, not to mention your MOError for getting a good angle to go to the 3 ball is very small.
Fran's solution is ok but still presents a couple of possible drawbacks. Whenever shooting a shot of this distance with follow and sidespin the shot becomes very missable as the OP found out. Catch the long rail on the way in and it ain't going in. I'm assuming that's how DR CUE missed it most often.
Assuming the shot is executed fairly well the 5 ball could be an issue. It's possible to come off the 2nd rail with a little too much speed and go past the 5 enough that the 2 can't be made. It's a shot you'd want to overhit a little because coming up short leaves you in pretty bad shape. So rolling past the 5 is a possibility. Less likely but still possible is ending up right in front of the 5 and having to bridge over it. That would make it real hard to get to the 3.
People might wonder why I often dwell on everything that might go wrong. It's because if you want to play good you must pay attention to any little thing that could go wrong and when analyzing situations look for ways to increase your MOE whenever possible. It may not change the result of any one particular shot but if done on every shot, over time it's going to increase your overall success rate dramaticly.
That being said, once all options are considered and a course of action determined, then all thoughts (negative or otherwise) should cease and just get down and execute the sucker perfectly. ha, ha.
Another way to play this shot and the one I like the best is to draw it slightly and with a touch of right, sending the CB across (or close to) the footspot toward the long rail. I want to get to the rail and come off it slightly. I'd like to end up with a shot in the side to go naturally uptable for the 3.
Granted, this is a very small position zone, something I very seldom advocate but in this case I think it's the best shot choice. Playing position to a rail and off is usually fairly easy to control, speedwise. With any kind of decent control you'll be in an area with a possible 3 shots (side or 2 top corners) all of which have a good chance for getting to the 3. Even if you hit it bad, there's very little chance of being hooked and you should be fairly close to the 2 and have a good choice of options.
 

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
Gold Member
Silver Member
That's all well and good, but if you get 10 top pros in a room and show them a diagram, 9 or even sometimes 10 out of 10 will choose the same way. The reason is because they have both the experience and the skill to make the most logical decision.

It's really not a bad idea to pay attention to people who know what they're doing.

I agree 100%.

I wasn't referring to this specific shot or any other shot, or any specific authority or instructor. I'm just saying that there are always varying opinions based on individual preference, and anyone that wants to learn should surely pay attention to and emulate what pro players do, which doesn't always fall in line with proper instruction. They also need to experiment with certain shots because that's the best way to learn all the intricacies involved with the shot. And occassionally, through exploration, one might learn that what they were taught or told by a teacher doesn't exactly fit reality.

An instructor can teach all the correct rules for playing position, like staying on the correct side of the ball and bringing the cb into the line of the next shot position where there's the widest room for error, etc.... But a good student will need to learn when to break these rules. A good student should experiment with everything they are learning, question teachers and authority figures if something doesn't make sense, not accept with blind faith everything that they are being taught without questioning anything.
 
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Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
...draw it slightly and with a touch of right, sending the CB across (or close to) the footspot toward the long rail. I want to get to the rail and come off it slightly.

...

With any kind of decent control you'll be in an area with a possible 3 shots (side or 2 top corners) all of which have a good chance for getting to the 3.
I like the idea of playing the 2 uptable, but I'd try an approach with more MOE: a stun-rollthrough hit to come softly off the end rail at about the middle diamond.

pj
chgo
 

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
Gold Member
Silver Member
One thing I'm definitly not doing is trying to draw above the 2 ball to play it in the corner near the 8. A number of things can go wrong, not to mention your MOError for getting a good angle to go to the 3 ball is very small.
Fran's solution is ok but still presents a couple of possible drawbacks. Whenever shooting a shot of this distance with follow and sidespin the shot becomes very missable as the OP found out. Catch the long rail on the way in and it ain't going in. I'm assuming that's how DR CUE missed it most often.
Assuming the shot is executed fairly well the 5 ball could be an issue. It's possible to come off the 2nd rail with a little too much speed and go past the 5 enough that the 2 can't be made. It's a shot you'd want to overhit a little because coming up short leaves you in pretty bad shape. So rolling past the 5 is a possibility. Less likely but still possible is ending up right in front of the 5 and having to bridge over it. That would make it real hard to get to the 3.
People might wonder why I often dwell on everything that might go wrong. It's because if you want to play good you must pay attention to any little thing that could go wrong and when analyzing situations look for ways to increase your MOE whenever possible. It may not change the result of any one particular shot but if done on every shot, over time it's going to increase your overall success rate dramaticly.
That being said, once all options are considered and a course of action determined, then all thoughts (negative or otherwise) should cease and just get down and execute the sucker perfectly. ha, ha.
Another way to play this shot and the one I like the best is to draw it slightly and with a touch of right, sending the CB across (or close to) the footspot toward the long rail. I want to get to the rail and come off it slightly. I'd like to end up with a shot in the side to go naturally uptable for the 3.
Granted, this is a very small position zone, something I very seldom advocate but in this case I think it's the best shot choice. Playing position to a rail and off is usually fairly easy to control, speedwise. With any kind of decent control you'll be in an area with a possible 3 shots (side or 2 top corners) all of which have a good chance for getting to the 3. Even if you hit it bad, there's very little chance of being hooked and you should be fairly close to the 2 and have a good choice of options.

I shot it a few times several ways. The 2 rail position leaves very little angle and the cb ends up between the 5 and 2 most of the time. I tried spinning it tight around the corner to squeeze the cb inside the 2 (between the 2 and 9), but can't do it. If the 8 weren't there, that would work. I tried a few times to get side pocket shape or straight into the far corner shape.....no good on consistency there.

The straight draw shot works best for me. Low with a good stroke gets me a great angle on the 2 more often than any other shot I tried. I'll record the shots if I get time later. The 5 ball is an obstacle on most shots from the 2 to the 3.
 
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BilliardsAbout

BondFanEvents.com
Silver Member
I like the posting of "What Would You Do?" type shots. I think it's a great way for players to expand their current knowledge by experimenting with options. Having a mentor or an instructor is a great plus. However, the student should eventually look beyond the knowledge and creativity of their mentor, coach, or instructor if mastery level is a goal. As Leonardo da Vinci wrote, "Poor is the pupil who does not surpass his master."

What I've noticed often is this: If a certified instructor or an established person of authority in pool/billiards says something, too many players assume it's fact, no other options, no other opinions or ideas welcome.

So I like these WWYD scenarios, because regardless of who you are, or who I am, or who anyone is, there are usually several solutions to these scenarios, and the best solution isn't determined by you or me or any instructor or mentor. It's determined by the individual player shooting the shot in a variety of ways to find what works best for him or her. So when a player asks, "What would you do?", usually the player is looking for a better way to see the shot, looking for multiple options, hoping to learn something that clicks for them.

And . . . lessons.

However, during a practice session, a player can think of three different spins and speeds to do the same upcoming shot to flex their mind.
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I shot it a few times several ways. The 2 rail position leaves very little angle and the cb ends up between the 5 and 2 most of the time. I tried spinning it tight around the corner to squeeze the cb inside the 2 (between the 2 and 9), but can't do it. If the 8 weren't there, that would work. I tried a few times to get side pocket shape or straight into the far corner shape.....no good on consistency there.

The straight draw shot works best for me. Low with a good stroke gets me a great angle on the 2 more often than any other shot I tried. I'll record the shots if I get time later. The 5 ball is an obstacle on most shots from the 2 to the 3.

The key is to hit it with enough top spin. Then the cb will travel to the right spot on the rail and the sidespin will get it to spin out towards the center of the table. There are a few misconceptions among players who are learning. One is where center ball actually is and the second is that you can actually hit the cue ball higher than you think. The closer to center you strike the cue ball, the longer it will travel along it's 90 degree tangent line before it rolls forward. You don't want this to happen in the case of this shot. You want it to get to the rail earlier rather than later, so you've got to watch your speed and where you strike the cue ball.

By the way --- my preference is to hit low whenever possible, but in this case I would choose to go high. It's one of those bread and butter type shots that all players should practice until they are comfortable shooting.
 
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BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
Gold Member
Silver Member
The key is to hit it with enough top spin. Then the cb will travel to the right spot on the rail and the sidespin will get it to spin out towards the center of the table. There are a few misconceptions among players who are learning. One is where center ball actually is and the second is that you can actually hit the cue ball higher than you think. The closer to center you strike the cue ball, the longer it will travel along it's 90 degree tangent line before it rolls forward. You don't want this to happen in the case of this shot. You want it to get to the rail earlier rather than later, so you've got to watch your speed and where you strike the cue ball.

By the way --- my preference is to hit low whenever possible, but in this case I would choose to go high. It's one of those bread and butter type shots that all players should practice until they are comfortable shooting.

Good point ...Many players don't realize exactly how high or low they can go, or already think they are super high or low based on their visual perspective of the cb.

For me, this particular shot doesnt appear to be the standard bread and butter 2-rails back to center when you set it up and shoot it. The cb goes toward the 5 ball. And when trying to come in tight/close to the 2 to get a better angle, the likelihood of hitting the 2 is very real. So as far as a typical bread butter shot goes, this one seems like the butter is cold and hard and doesn't spread easily. :D.

This is the kind of shot that when watching SVB or Earl or Jason Shaw, or whoever happens to be playing it, and they shoot the 2-rail shape and thin the 2 and get out of line, or roll up against the 5 making the 2 a jacked up shot, they drop their head while the fans gasp and the commentators try to make sense of what happened.

I'd love to see a video example of anyone that can shoot this 2 rails and get the cb somewhere between the "S" and the "k" in "Sticks" on that ChalkySticks logo. I don't see it happening by going between the 2 and rail. It looks possible to get there by going between the 2 and 9, but you'd really have to manipulate that CB, possibly missing the 1 ball shot.

Might make more sense to play for the 2 in the far corner up the rail. If you don't get usable shape (straight in or slight angle left or righ, play safe.
 

BilliardsAbout

BondFanEvents.com
Silver Member
Respectfully, you struck a lovely draw shot but your margin of error for distance was fractional. Cutting across the line of the 2-ball that close to the 2-ball . . .
 

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
Gold Member
Silver Member
Respectfully, you struck a lovely draw shot but your margin of error for distance was fractional. Cutting across the line of the 2-ball that close to the 2-ball . . .

Yes, I made sure to go a little farther after that first shot.
As you know, some shots require cutting across the line. Watch any pro match and you'll see it very often. Strict adherence to position guidelines is not reality. I could shoot this 100 times, and I'm sure sometimes I'd glance off that 2 every now and then, sometimes I'd be straight in on the 2, other times I'd have a thinner or thicker angle than I want, and other times I'd hit it absolutely perfect. But of all the options, this works best for me.

I think many players are misled into believing that shape must be perfect, that pros are always perfectly in line and therefore we should be also if we expect to be a good player. But that's not the reality of playing pool, not even for the greatest players. Sure, sometimes we must get perfect position, but that doesn't mean we will, whether you play like Jason Shaw or not. Probably 99% of the time, playing 9 or 10 ball, all you really need is a shot angle that leads to the next shot, focusing on the process from one shot to the next, gaining position in a general area, not overthinking or overtrying to get perfect position. Thinking this way, and incorporating the basics of position play when possible, leads to solid play in my opinion, and you'll find yourself getting near perfect quite often without really trying.
 
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BilliardsAbout

BondFanEvents.com
Silver Member
Yes, I made sure to go a little farther after that first shot.
As you know, some shots require cutting across the line. Watch any pro match and you'll see it very often. Strict adherence to position guidelines is not reality. I could shoot this 100 times, and I'm sure sometimes I'd glance off that 2 every now and then, sometimes I'd be straight in on the 2, other times I'd have a thinner or thicker angle than I want, and other times I'd hit it absolutely perfect. But of all the options, this works best for me.

I think many players are misled into believing that shape must be perfect, that pros are always perfectly in line and therefore we should be also if we expect to be a good player. But that's not the reality of playing pool, not even for the greatest players. Sure, sometimes we must get perfect position, but that doesn't mean we will, whether you play like Jason Shaw or not. Probably 99% of the time, playing 9 or 10 ball, all you really need is a shot angle that leads to the next shot, focusing on the process from one shot to the next, gaining position in a general area, not overthinking or overtrying to get perfect position. Thinking this way, and incorporating the basics of position play when possible, leads to solid play in my opinion, and you'll find yourself getting near perfect quite often without really trying.

Yes, I can see it in a pro match. From an education standpoint, 90% of league players cut the line constantly to their detriment.
 
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