How many players in the US are too good (or would not be allowed) to play in the APA?

justinb386 · Oct 25, 2014

Sorry if this is a very stupid or silly question, but I am just curious on an estimate of how many american pool players out there are too good, or would not be allowed to play in the APA (if they wanted to)?

I know a few players that have been banned from the APA, but it was not because they were pro speed (they were banned for other reasons), so I would like to not count those that are not allowed to play in the APA for reasons like sandbagging for example.

Just curious on opinions of how many active players out there would be too strong for even the strongest 7's (in 8 ball) or 9's (in 9 ball)?

I asked a similar question awhile back about how many pro's there are in the US, and I guess that this is a different type of question (because most replied with an answer of SVB being the only pro player in the US).

So is there a line between being too strong to be in the APA, and being a pro?

I am guessing that at least 99% of the guys that travel around on the tours like the Viking tour, and the Midwest 9 ball tour (and the Siminal pro tour) would be too strong to play in the APA, but I do not know.

Donny Lutz · Oct 25, 2014

No restrictions

justinb386 said:
Sorry if this is a very stupid or silly question, but I am just curious on an estimate of how many american pool players out there are too good, or would not be allowed to play in the APA (if they wanted to)?

I know a few players that have been banned from the APA, but it was not because they were pro speed (they were banned for other reasons), so I would like to not count those that are not allowed to play in the APA for reasons like sandbagging for example.

Just curious on opinions of how many active players out there would be too strong for even the strongest 7's (in 8 ball) or 9's (in 9 ball)?

I asked a similar question awhile back about how many pro's there are in the US, and I guess that this is a different type of question (because most replied with an answer of SVB being the only pro player in the US).

So is there a line between being too strong to be in the APA, and being a pro?

I am guessing that at least 99% of the guys that travel around on the tours like the Viking tour, and the Midwest 9 ball tour (and the Siminal pro tour) would be too strong to play in the APA, but I do not know.

I could be wrong, but I don't believe the APA denies membership to anyone because of skill level.

From what I've seen being a part of leagues for most of the past fifty years, most of the better league players (who have played in more than one or two league systems) prefer other systems.

Solomon · Oct 25, 2014

I know this isn't a direct answer to your question, but a lot of people that are really good 'out grow' the APA because it is hard to keep teams together because of handicapping limits.

For the most part I don't think a lot of players would get banned from the APA for being too good. I think there may be an issue if it can be proven that someone receives the majority their income directly from playing pool because they wouldn't be considered an Amateur Poolplayer.

one stroke · Oct 25, 2014

That is correct like the SBE they have some formula ,, even in the masters , Manny Chau was kicked off a team ,, I know a few more , before the Masters came along

1

whammo57 · Oct 25, 2014

The APA does not allow professional pool players........... There is no ban for being too good................

Kim

efirkey · Oct 25, 2014

Solomon said:
I know this isn't a direct answer to your question, but a lot of people that are really good 'out grow' the APA because it is hard to keep teams together because of handicapping limits.

This is the exact reason why I left the APA. As a 7 it was difficult to play on the same team every year if we were a good team. Someone's rank would go up and then we had issues and had to change the roster.

I played several years on a team that was basically 7, 5, 4, 4, 3, 3 handicaps myself being the 7. We never had issues with the numbers and we also never even came close to going to vegas.

Then I played on a team that was roughly 7, 6, 5, 5, 4, 3, 3. We made it to vegas. However once one person moved up one point we had to find a new player. I got tired of that real quick and decided not to play anymore.
.

Wedge · Oct 25, 2014

8 Ball vs. 9 Ball in APA

There is a huge gap between lower tier APA 7's and the better 7's in 8 Ball. The best 7's will destroy a weak 7. This is not true in APA 9 Ball. The SL 9's are all capable of beating each other and are playing at a near pro or at least a semi pro level! This may be a bit off topic but there are APA 9's that can beat a pro in 9 Ball.

Wedge

zpele · Oct 25, 2014

Wedge said:
There is a huge gap between lower tier APA 7's and the better 7's in 8 Ball. The best 7's will destroy a weak 7. This is not true in APA 9 Ball. The SL 9's are all capable of beating each other and are playing at a near pro or at least a semi pro level! This may be a bit off topic but there are APA 9's that can beat a pro in 9 Ball.

Wedge

I do not agree. There are good sl9 but they are mostly B+ players and a large portion of them are barbox specialists.

A B+ player would have a hard time beating a shortstop or pro. Unless you know of a large number of sl9 players that can run 4-5 packs consistently.

In answer to the OP... There are many players out there that have outgrown league play. You probably won't hear about them until you start outgrowing league play yourself but once you do you will see (depending on the area you live in) that there are a great many players that would be able to beat most sl7 players in 8ball and even more 9ball players that would be able to destroy a sl9 in 9ball on a 9foot table.

It's a big world out there and there is a lot of talent.

justinb386 · Oct 25, 2014

Okay, I will change my question. How many pro players are there in the US (players that would not be allowed to play in the APA or any other Amateur league, if they wanted to that is)? Who all out there would be considered pro? I used to think that a player needed to place in the money in pro events and earn a certain amount of points to be considered a pro. And what about the players that play on these regional tours (like the midwest 9 ball tour)? Would they be considered pro, and not allowed in an Amateur league? I feel so silly asking these questions, because I know that the players that play in these regional tours would probably never be interested in playing in an Amateur league anyways. I am also curious if the popularity of pool has declined within the last 20 years. I remember how popular pool was when I was a kid back in the 90's, and I think that there was an actual US pro tour back then (and not just all of these regional tours like there are now, and I am sure that the tour was also on the big tables, and not mostly bar box tournaments like there are these days). Are there less pro players in the US today then there were back in the 90's? There did used to be an actual national pro tour here in the US, or am I wrong? Thanks for your replies. Sorry, I am just bored, and these questions came to mind.

whammo57 said:
The APA does not allow professional pool players........... There is no ban for being too good................

Kim

justinb386 · Oct 25, 2014

Yeah, I feel like my questions were so silly now, because I understand that there are who knows how many players out there that would destroy any skill level 7 or 9 (APA player), and you are right about the 9's. Most of them are very strong B players at best. I was in Vegas back in 2002 for the APA singles nationals, and the guy that got 1st place was a 9, and he completely destroyed the 7 that he played. Now that guy really was too good for the APA in my opinion. I do not think he missed a ball the entire match of the finals, and I was told that he won it the previous year too (as a 9). I do not know if there are players that strong in the APA anymore. I imagine there are not.

zpele said:
I do not agree. There are good sl9 but they are mostly B+ players and a large portion of them are barbox specialists.

A B+ player would have a hard time beating a shortstop or pro. Unless you know of a large number of sl9 players that can run 4-5 packs consistently.

In answer to the OP... There are many players out there that have outgrown league play. You probably won't hear about them until you start outgrowing league play yourself but once you do you will see (depending on the area you live in) that there are a great many players that would be able to beat most sl7 players in 8ball and even more 9ball players that would be able to destroy a sl9 in 9ball on a 9foot table.

It's a big world out there and there is a lot of talent.

nobcitypool · Oct 25, 2014

I think the better question is why would they want to? By and large, there is a huge, huge gap in skill between skill level 7/9 and high level players. Why would a pro level player want to come out, watch a couple of 3s take 13 innings to play a single game then run our 7 racks against a hopelessly over matched opponent?

Watch a few pro 8 and 9 ball matches on a diamond bar box. They mostly make it look effortless. Now imagine it on a valley bar box. The difference between the pros and mere mortals is greater than most people think.

justinb386 · Oct 25, 2014

Yeah, you make a good point. None of the regional tour players (and many strong unknown players) would ever want to play in the APA (because it would be so boring to them). I previously asked this same type of question (on how many pro players there are in the US), and most of the replies were that Shane Van Boening is the only true american pro. I am just curious how many players there are in the US that are on the level of a Justin Bergman or a Chip Compton (to name a few examples)?

nobcitypool said:
I think the better question is why would they want to? By and large, there is a huge, huge gap in skill between skill level 7/9 and high level players. Why would a pro level player want to come out, watch a couple of 3s take 13 innings to play a single game then run our 7 racks against a hopelessly over matched opponent?

Watch a few pro 8 and 9 ball matches on a diamond bar box. They mostly make it look effortless. Now imagine it on a valley bar box. The difference between the pros and mere mortals is greater than most people think.

one stroke · Oct 25, 2014

Wedge said:
There is a huge gap between lower tier APA 7's and the better 7's in 8 Ball. The best 7's will destroy a weak 7. This is not true in APA 9 Ball. The SL 9's are all capable of beating each other and are playing at a near pro or at least a semi pro level! This may be a bit off topic but there are APA 9's that can beat a pro in 9 Ball.

Wedge

Yes wedge you are correct I'm sure between us we can name a few I've only knocked off one Matt Krah but been close several times Mike Davis , Shaun Wilki a couple I was real close My buddy Richard Keef has knock off a few ,, Rick M ,, Larry Kressle , Chris Bruner Alan Duty , Shorty Henson to name a few more have knocked of thier share , and certainly Brian Deska ,
However none of them have the type of finish that would put you out of the APA

1

one stroke · Oct 25, 2014

zpele said:
I do not agree. There are good sl9 but they are mostly B+ players and a large portion of them are barbox specialists.

A B+ player would have a hard time beating a shortstop or pro. Unless you know of a large number of sl9 players that can run 4-5 packs consistently.

In answer to the OP... There are many players out there that have outgrown league play. You probably won't hear about them until you start outgrowing league play yourself but once you do you will see (depending on the area you live in) that there are a great many players that would be able to beat most sl7 players in 8ball and even more 9ball players that would be able to destroy a sl9 in 9ball on a 9foot table.

It's a big world out there and there is a lot of talent.

wrong there's many A player 9s and thier capable of knocking off pro players ,, the differance is they don't do it on a consistent basis , and few of them string 4 or 5 packs that's a myth ,, I have played many many pros and not one has run over a 3 pack on me , but it doesn't happen not near as much as people think
Part of the reason thier pros is they don't take as many chances they play smart and play safe when the percentages aren't there

1

9

The Renfro · Oct 25, 2014

Wedge said:
There is a huge gap between lower tier APA 7's and the better 7's in 8 Ball. The best 7's will destroy a weak 7. This is not true in APA 9 Ball. The SL 9's are all capable of beating each other and are playing at a near pro or at least a semi pro level! This may be a bit off topic but there are APA 9's that can beat a pro in 9 Ball.

Wedge

Depends on the pro... The race and the equipment.... Short race bar box maybe... 9ft race to 11 not gonna be many if any that will beat a true pro player often if at all may 1 in 12 races at best maybe much worse....... Try shooting keeping your TPA per the accu-stats method and you will see real fast that a league player isn't ever going to be a pro player just by quitting their job and playing 8 hours a day like many of them think......

Chris

lorider · Oct 25, 2014

last year at our 9 ball cities there were several people complaining my team mate who is an 8 should not be allowed to play apa.

it was due to my team mate being up 60-1 against a 6 before the 6 threw his cue down and said he quit the match. personaly i dont think he is too good for apa. i have only faced him once and i won...that was napa 8 ball. we are team mates on a money league team and he is not the best player on that team.

zpele · Oct 25, 2014

one stroke said:
wrong there's many A player 9s and thier capable of knocking off pro players ,, the differance is they don't do it on a consistent basis , and few of them string 4 or 5 packs that's a myth ,, I have played many many pros and not one has run over a 3 pack on me , but it doesn't happen not near as much as people think
Part of the reason thier pros is they don't take as many chances they play smart and play safe when the percentages aren't there

1

9

Well we can agree to disagree. While some can knock off a pro every once in a while that does not make them an A. Also many, many pros can run 3 packs consistently.

You are also neglecting the fact that when we talk about APA we are talking barboxes for the most part. On a barbox most pros can put together packs rather frequently. I can put together small packs on a barbox and I am far from a pro. When you move up to a 9foot things change drastically and the real talent shines through.

Derek · Oct 25, 2014

lorider said:
last year at our 9 ball cities there were several people complaining my team mate who is an 8 should not be allowed to play apa.

it was due to my team mate being up 60-1 against a 6 before the 6 threw his cue down and said he quit the match. personaly i dont think he is too good for apa. i have only faced him once and i won...that was napa 8 ball. we are team mates on a money league team and he is not the best player on that team.

The problem being many shooters who play mainly just leagues are a whiny bunch and don't have an understanding of the immense pool of very talented players who do not shoot leagues.

If you were playing on bar boxes, it's not too difficult to imagine a player ranked an 8 getting up 60-1 against a 6. Good players can get hot and 9-ball barbox can be streaky.

As for the original question, it might not be so much players who are "too good" to play in leagues, as the top handicap number could support a wide berth of talent, but that top players are either bored by leagues or just don't have the time.

I prefer the race format in the APA but it's a detriment being a high handicap because you usually end up waiting until the last match of the night or perhaps not playing at all. Getting to put together a skilled team in BCA or Valley is great but I'm not a big fan of the single game against an opponent. I do like the quick nights though.

one stroke · Oct 25, 2014

zpele said:
Well we can agree to disagree. While some can knock off a pro every once in a while that does not make them an A. Also many, many pros can run 3 packs consistently.

You are also neglecting the fact that when we talk about APA we are talking barboxes for the most part. On a barbox most pros can put together packs rather frequently. I can put together small packs on a barbox and I am far from a pro. When you move up to a 9foot things change drastically and the real talent shines through.

I am talking specific to my area many of them are on 9 ft tables and the players I mentioned are A players in regional tours and certainly are capable of beating pro's ,
Although pro's a capable of running big packages you can watch dozens of matches and not see it happen and a lot of turneys are alternate break anyway ,,
Sky was playing APA just a few yrs ago told me and Kirkwood he was playing even with Warren Kiamco on the 9 footers
1

KMRUNOUT · Oct 26, 2014

Wedge said:
There is a huge gap between lower tier APA 7's and the better 7's in 8 Ball. The best 7's will destroy a weak 7. This is not true in APA 9 Ball. The SL 9's are all capable of beating each other and are playing at a near pro or at least a semi pro level! This may be a bit off topic but there are APA 9's that can beat a pro in 9 Ball.

Wedge

Hmm...the 9's in 9 ball vary all over the place in my area. Not one 9 is "near pro", and there are one or two who at one point were C players on the local tour. I play this kid...we are both 9's. I spot him 8-5 playing 9 ball on the local handicapped tournaments. I think everything you say about the 7's is also true for 9's. Honestly, you really only have to play low B speed to be a 9.

KMRUNOUT

How many players in the US are too good (or would not be allowed) to play in the APA?

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