Real Gambling vs Stream Money Grab

I think it's much more likely that the players are competing for a real money difference but action is induced by contributions from PPV.

Suppose two players were very close in skill level. Why would they play each other for money? Why would someone back them and give up 2:1? They wouldn't. So the match wouldn't happen.

But now let's say the promoter says "Hey, play each other for 10K, and I can kick both parties 3K cash for making the game." Now the player can effectively put up 7K for a shot to win 13K. Those odds look much better for the player, and to any potential backers. As a result, the game happens and we get to see some of our dream matches.

I agree that it would be wrong to have purely exhibition matches advertised deceptively as money games, but it doesn't seem like that's what's happening. To me it looks like these promoters are giving the fans the dream matches we're dying to see that wouldn't otherwise occur, are helping the players earn a living, and are being compensated to justify their continued efforts. Seems like a good thing to me.

I'd guess about half of the streams are very overestimated in how much money they are playing for.

I liked TAR's model in the end. TAR makes the game, and pays the expenses, and pays about 3K to the winner, and 1.5K to the loser. (The values can be adjusted to make financial sense for all parties involved, of course). This keeps things transparent, and also gets rid of much of the herding cats mentality. Accu-stats is doing a similar model with their "Make it happen" series.

I'd rather watch something like this, then a "gambling match" advertised as 10k per man, and really its all a lie.

At the end of the day, I don't think it makes much of a difference to these player if they are playing a paid exhibition, or a 20k per man gambling match. When was the last time a pro gambled without a backer, anyway? The players play the same speed in both cases, IMO. On the other hand, to the fan buying the stream, its a turn off if deception is suspected.

watchez said:

I’m not going to get into specific names. But I do know that getting paid $1000 or $2000 a day or more is pretty good money in this country - no matter how rich someone is or how rich you think they are.

And I’ve heard (seen the texts and PMs) the ppv promoter offering $8k on more than one occasion to players to be on the stream. $3k a day —- that’s only a million dollar a year salary. Yep no pool player would get up and play simply for that.

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I didn't realize they had daily streams.

MachineGunKelly said:

Please elaborate on this "urgency" you speak of?

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Its all here; missed easy balls, forfeiting with nearly half the balls left?

Nochalantin around the pool table :nono:

BeiberLvr said:

I didn't realize they had daily streams.

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It a million a year day, no?

Perhaps not the best wording, but you can't think watchz thinks there's a pool player out there that plays for 3k every day?

CreeDo said:

What does it achieve exactly to make this sort of post, with zero evidence?

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Visible nonchalance in the Shaw vs Woodward match, including numerous concessions of multiple balls at the ends of racks late in the match counts as evidence in my books. I've never seen this sort of thing in a big money match before.

The original poster is right to question whether these matches are for real or for show.

who won the SHAW vs SKY match?

TIA!!

Black-Balled said:

It a million a year day, no?

Perhaps not the best wording, but you can't think watchz thinks there's a pool player out there that plays for 3k every day?

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15 or so years ago I had a nice score from a customer. It was 700, and took maybe 3 hours. The whole room watched. One idiot, and I use that term nicely, who was a regular for a year or two (but still a Z player), said to me afterwards: "Why do you even have a job? That's over $200 per hour!". He was dead serious. ha ha ha.

ribdoner said:

who won the SHAW vs SKY match?

TIA!!

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Shaw won it.

watchez said:

What % of the bigger streamed matches over the last year do you think are for real money as opposed to money grabs for the streamers PPV money? I know back in the days of the original streamer TAR, Justin stated he would never stream a match that wasn’t real in any way shape or form.

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The best answer I can give you is that in all the paid stream matches each player is getting a cut. That way they don't walk away empty. Probably get their room comped as well. Additionally the winning player will often throw the losing player a "saver' usually as much as 10% of their end. Pretty much all the big money games are covered by backers with players getting 25-33% of the winnings. Remember if they win it's free money and if they lose they still go away with something.

Then there are the matches constructed just for the stream with each player being paid. Maybe the winner gets a bonus and maybe not. I'd say that in today's market it's about 50-50 real money matches to made-for-stream matches. Anyone who is knowledgeable about pool can usually tell the difference. Some guys (Dennis, T-Rex, Chang and Filler) don't want any part of the "make believe" big money matches. They want to play for the real deal.

sjm said:

shaw won it.

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thanks!!!!

watchez said:

I’m not going to get into specific names. But I do know that getting paid $1000 or $2000 a day or more is pretty good money in this country - no matter how rich someone is or how rich you think they are.

And I’ve heard (seen the texts and PMs) the ppv promoter offering $8k on more than one occasion to players to be on the stream. $3k a day —- that’s only a million dollar a year salary. Yep no pool player would get up and play simply for that.

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Its VERY VERY far from a million dollars a year salary if it only lasts 3 days. They both should win an Oscar for acting if this wasn't on the up and up. Clear emotion was shown on both sides when winning and losing. I never said they didn't get paid by the promoter, but i do believe they were also gambling.

MachineGunKelly said:

Its VERY VERY far from a million dollars a year salary if it only lasts 3 days. They both should win an Oscar for acting if this wasn't on the up and up. Clear emotion was shown on both sides when winning and losing. I never said they didn't get paid by the promoter, but i do believe they were also gambling.

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How is 3000 different from 1m?

Say it isn't so.

jay helfert said:

The best answer I can give you is that in all the paid stream matches each player is getting a cut. That way they don't walk away empty. Probably get their room comped as well. Additionally the winning player will often throw the losing player a "saver' usually as much as 10% of their end. Pretty much all the big money games are covered by backers with players getting 25-33% of the winnings. Remember if they win it's free money and if they lose they still go away with something.

Then there are the matches constructed just for the stream with each player being paid. Maybe the winner gets a bonus and maybe not. I'd say that in today's market it's about 50-50 real money matches to made-for-stream matches. Anyone who is knowledgeable about pool can usually tell the difference. Some guys (Dennis, T-Rex, Chang and Filler) don't want any part of the "make believe" big money matches. They want to play for the real deal.

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Dennis and Tony are playing a huge One Pocket match next month and i can say 100% it's a real gambling match.

Tony said he's going all in on this one, and a large % of his side of the wager is going to be his own money.

He's in Houston now getting his game tuned up, he plans on playing as much as he can for the next month to get ready for Dennis on September 19th in New Orleans.

Anybody that knows T-Rex knows he will bet it up with his own

terryhanna said:

Dennis and Tony are playing a huge One Pocket match next month with 100k in the middle and i can say 100% it's a real gambling match.

Tony said he's going all in on this one, and a large % of his side of the wager is going to be his own money.

He's in Houston now getting his game tuned up, he plans on playing as much as he can for the next month to get ready for Dennis on September 19th in New Orleans.

Anybody that knows T-Rex knows he will bet it up with his own

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Thank you Terry. I know this match (and every other time they matched up) is the real deal. Dennis also will bet his own when he has it. If he likes a game and doesn't have a backer he will empty out and play. There is a reason that he has been the money game king of the Philippines for over a decade now. To dominate over there (like he has) is really something. I've seen exactly one guy (Anton) play him even and win. Of course Dennis avenged that loss quickly. Tony is well known for betting his own too. He and Amar criss-crossed the country leaving only destroyed bankrolls in their wake many years ago. They had no backers, only themselves and they were betting high every day.

When so many people leave Dennis out of the equation as one of the top money players I know they don't have a clue. Dennis was primed and ready to play Filler at the last DCC, but he got ducked. Dennis has played Chang several times, both winning and losing to him. He had an open invitation to Shane for years as well. Meanwhile Tony has made it crystal clear he will play anybody One Pocket and they can bet what they want. So far Dennis is the only one who wants a piece of him. That should tell you something about both of them. The only other guy I would put in their class is Alex.

watchez said:

I’m not going to get into specific names. But I do know that getting paid $1000 or $2000 a day or more is pretty good money in this country - no matter how rich someone is or how rich you think they are.

And I’ve heard (seen the texts and PMs) the ppv promoter offering $8k on more than one occasion to players to be on the stream. $3k a day —- that’s only a million dollar a year salary. Yep no pool player would get up and play simply for that.

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WTF are you talking about here? Twist it how you like.

I found your point easily taken.

watchez said:

Jesus Christ - are you and Beiberlvr and others that dense? My analogy is that getting paid $1000 to $3000 for a days of work is VERY GOOD money. Did I ever say they are able to do it every day -- of course not. Which gives it even more emphasis that this type of payday is a good chunk of change for the 'pool player' to earn.

And again - I didn't name any specific names or specific match -- so not sure why you are inferring anyone is winning an Oscar.

Just another comprehension fail by you.

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Black-Balled said:

I found your point easily taken.

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Hey Black-Balled. Are you wearing your Watchez skirt and pom poms when you post?