APA Needs to STOP Re-Ranking Players During Touraments

Shawn Armstrong

AZB deceased - stopped posting 5/13/2022
Silver Member
I have a question about the “local” system. You say my last 20 games are the basis. I played so badly after being raised to a SL 7 that I was dropped back to a 6. However, after JUST 3 matches against SL 5s, I was raised back to a 7. I beat a 6 and a 4, but also lost to a 6 and a 4. I never got to to the hill in those loses. My overall record this past session was 5 wins and 6 losses. I played 5 matches against 7s and lost (badly) in 4 of them. The one win was hill/hill and I only won when he missed a easy 8 ball! One ball away from a 4-7 record with NO wins against a SL 7. How could you justify raising my handicap back to a 7?

Not enough info to go on. Ask the LO to explain your handicap. But, just because you’re a 7, doesn’t mean you should win 100% of your matches. There are 7s in my region with a 30% w/l record. They’re established 7s with a national lowest attainable of 7.
 

APA Operator

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Stop giving away spots to the citywides to every other team. Stop ignoring the rule that says if you win in the summer you must finish in the top 50% in the next sessions. Stop cutting deals with captains giving them spots in the citywides.

The first and third suggestions I agree with. The second, however, has to be the way it is in the book. If a league is totally fair, any team could finish first one session and last the next. You can threaten to take away qualification, but it's wrong to take it from a team that did nothing wrong. Maybe if you said "use it more often, when appropriate" I could agree.
 

JessEm

AzB Goldmember
Silver Member
Do I need to reply in crayon for you to understand??

Do you know what a handicap declaration form is? Please answer.

If responding to me in crayon helps you see my answer, go for it. lol

I answered your question for you in post #54... Never heard of it. However, admittedly, I may have signed one without knowing it.

Let me take a wild guess, it says they "reserve the right to move your rank mid-tournament?" ...And knowing this in advance encourages participation how, exactly??
 

APA Operator

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
What if, just maybe, LO's and Reps did a better job rating players BEFORE tournaments. Then, if any adjustments are deemed appropriate DURING, they would be applied LATER??

Sure would prevent WASTING a lot of people's time, and a lot of disappointment and hard feelings...

No, it wouldn't. I think that would just waste more HONEST people's time and less DISHONEST people's time. Let the cheaters keep what they win and the honest people have less chance to win, yeah, that's the way to do it.

The DISHONEST people are the ones screwing it up for everyone. If they would just let us know who they are, it would all be fixed. Let's just ask them. Anyone here who is dishonest, raise your hand...
 

jason

Unprofessional everything
Silver Member
Can't a league player just play safe a lot? Sure
Like make a ball, play safe and try for ball in hand, then play safe again by trying to roll one of his balls in front of a pocket. Sure
And keep on doing that until all his balls are gone?Sure
Looks like that would drive an opponent into getting mad and losing his concentrartion. Which would be a good thing.Why not

All of those are within the rules and totally acceptable as long as all safetys were marked. Not marking the safetys is against the rules would be considered sandbagging. Good luck in inforcing that rule consistently. It's like telling sticky fingers Joe that he has to inforce his own shoplifting. Aint gonna happen. Most people are honest, but if you play sticky fingers Joe's team, you probably don't have the best of it.
 

JessEm

AzB Goldmember
Silver Member
No, it wouldn't. I think that would just waste more HONEST people's time and less DISHONEST people's time. Let the cheaters keep what they win and the honest people have less chance to win, yeah, that's the way to do it.

The DISHONEST people are the ones screwing it up for everyone. If they would just let us know who they are, it would all be fixed. Let's just ask them. Anyone here who is dishonest, raise your hand...

What kind of ass backward cop out is this for doing your job, and properly ranking HONEST people BEFOREHAND! So they're not screwed over mid-tournament.

You're pretty quick to accuse people you arbitrarily deem better than their SL as DISHONEST. Just WOW. Thanks "APA Operator"!!
 

Shawn Armstrong

AZB deceased - stopped posting 5/13/2022
Silver Member
What kind of ass backward cop out is this for doing your job, and properly ranking HONEST people BEFOREHAND! So they're not screwed over mid-tournament.

You're pretty quick to accuse people you arbitrarily deem better than their SL as DISHONEST. Just WOW. Thanks "APA Operator"!!

Please quit the APA.

Sincerely,

APA membership
 

mia

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
What kind of ass backward cop out is this for doing your job, and properly ranking HONEST people BEFOREHAND! So they're not screwed over mid-tournament.

You're pretty quick to accuse people you arbitrarily deem better than their SL as DISHONEST. Just WOW. Thanks "APA Operator"!!

With all due respect, you keep coming back to the notion that league operators should be properly ranking (HONEST) people beforehand.

First, how do you propose they do this? Do you expect league operators to hire 2-3 dozen more folks PER REGION who's sole purpose would be to go around, watch players playing over and over, and then determine their skill level all before allowing them to play an actual APA event?

As well, how does a league operator or even a division rep for that matter determine who is honest and who isn't?

I get that you were screwed in this scenario. And for that, I feel for you. But you keep making it out like the fix to your gripe is super easy! Just do a better job of 1) determining who is honest and who isn't; 2) ranking people.

So, do you have any ideas how to do these things OR are you just pissed and looking to scream at anyone attached to the APA?
 

jason

Unprofessional everything
Silver Member
The APA is a flawed system. In fact, all handicapping systems are flawed. That is the nature of them. The only honest system is a set of rules equal for all.

In my opinion, the APA system was started with very good intentions to be fair and honest. The problem, as we have found out, is the honesty loop hole that gets exploited by a few bad eggs. One bad apple (or egg in this case) spoils the bunch. If the APA had an honest, non biased scorekeeper at every match, it still couldn't prevent sandbagging. It would help, but not prevent it. Moving players up in the Vegas tournament is an attempt to discourage and adjust for sandbagging. With that said, it can be (but not necessarily) injust. From a marketing stand point, the APA is good. Players get better and have to branch off and form new teams or change the dynamics of the teams which promotes more competition and growth. That why the APA isn't going anywhere. They have a cash cow and do the best to make a flawed system as fair as they can.

Reminds me of an old gamblers story that goes something like this:

An old degenerate gamble is sitting at the bar and says to the bartender, "I think I'm going to head to the other end of town and play that poker tournament."

The bartender replies, "You know that game is crooked, right?"
"Yes." the old man replies, "But it is the only game in town!"


It is what it is, fair or not. If you have suggestions to make it better, I sure they will listen, but make sure you know exactly how to implement them or they will fall onto def ears. It is still a free country and you are free to start your own league if you choose.
 

JessEm

AzB Goldmember
Silver Member
With all due respect, you keep coming back to the notion that league operators should be properly ranking (HONEST) people beforehand.

First, how do you propose they do this? Do you expect league operators to hire 2-3 dozen more folks PER REGION who's sole purpose would be to go around, watch players playing over and over, and then determine their skill level all before allowing them to play an actual APA event?

mia, I've touched on this already in this thread. That said, I WISH I had all the answers lol. I'm just saying situations like ours is a recurring theme, and something needs to change. For the betterment of the APA...

"For starters, both teams turn in scoresheets. If Team-A's inning count has a large discrepancy, it might be a sign. FIND OUT WHY! Watch the player(s) in question. Make a note and pay particular attention to their scores for a bit. Look for a pattern. God forbid you should eventually have to get off your asterisk and go watch a match!"

"Get the players ranked properly BEFORE tournaments. Instead of subjecting people, and entire teams, to a huge letdown.

Any SL changes deemed appropriate during the course of a tournament, can then be applied AFTER the tournament."
 

Shawn Armstrong

AZB deceased - stopped posting 5/13/2022
Silver Member
mia, I've touched on this already in this thread. That said, I WISH I had all the answers lol. I'm just saying situations like ours is a recurring theme, and something needs to change. For the betterment of the APA...

"For starters, both teams turn in scoresheets. If Team-A's inning count has a large discrepancy, it might be a sign. FIND OUT WHY! Watch the player(s) in question. Make a note and pay particular attention to their scores for a bit. Look for a pattern. God forbid you should eventually have to get off your asterisk and go watch a match!"

"Get the players ranked properly BEFORE tournaments. Instead of subjecting people, and entire teams, to a huge letdown.

Any SL changes deemed appropriate during the course of a tournament, can then be applied AFTER the tournament."

Or, show one ounce of integrity, and be honest about what ranking you and your teammates play at. That requires no league intervention. But, keep blaming the system instead of taking some personal blame.
 

JessEm

AzB Goldmember
Silver Member
Please quit the APA.

Sincerely,

APA membership

Fortunately for me, you don't represent the APA.

Unfortunately for you, your intellect level has played-out well here over the course of the last couple pages. And it's not favorable, dumbass.
 

jokrswylde

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
"For starters, both teams turn in scoresheets. If Team-A's inning count has a large discrepancy, it might be a sign. FIND OUT WHY! Watch the player(s) in question. Make a note and pay particular attention to their scores for a bit. Look for a pattern. God forbid you should eventually have to get off your asterisk and go watch a match!"


Serious question: Do the scorekeepers not get together after each individual match and compare and make sure that the innings and safeties are correct and marked the same on each team's score sheet? That's how we do it in my league and I just figured it was that way everywhere.

For example, a common conversation after the first match the two scorekeepers get together

"I had 3 innings there"

"Yep, me too. And 3 safeties for my guy and 2 for yours, correct?"

"yep. Your turn to put up, who you going with?"

In 2 years as a captain, I can only remember one time where we just couldn't agree and turned in different scorecards. (and it was just about number of timeouts used.)
 
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Shawn Armstrong

AZB deceased - stopped posting 5/13/2022
Silver Member
Fortunately for me, you don't represent the APA.

Unfortunately for you, your intellect level has played-out well here over the course of the last couple pages. And it's not favorable, dumbass.

I’ve never been booted from an event, ever.

Shawn: 1
Internet troll that hides behind a username: 0
 

JessEm

AzB Goldmember
Silver Member
Serious question: Do the scorekeepers not get together after each individual match that the innings and safeties are correct and marked the same on each team's score sheet? That's how we do it in my league and I just figured it was that way everywhere.

For example, a common conversation after the first match the two scorekeepers get together

"I had 3 innings there"

"Yep, me too. And 3 safeties for my guy and 2 for yours, correct?"

"yep. Your turn to put up, who you going with?"

In 2 years as a captain, I can only remember one time where we just couldn't agree and turned in different scorecards. (and it was just about number of timeouts used.)

This seems to be the case in our league more often than not. It's my understanding that the consistency between scoresheets is "mandated"?

Maybe eliminating this practice is a good place to start.
 

Tony_in_MD

You want some of this?
Silver Member
In my experience in two different states and league operators areas that is how it is done. There are sometimes differences of opinions in safeties especially when a two way shot is played and missed.

Serious question: Do the scorekeepers not get together after each individual match and compare and make sure that the innings and safeties are correct and marked the same on each team's score sheet? That's how we do it in my league and I just figured it was that way everywhere.

For example, a common conversation after the first match the two scorekeepers get together

"I had 3 innings there"

"Yep, me too. And 3 safeties for my guy and 2 for yours, correct?"

"yep. Your turn to put up, who you going with?"

In 2 years as a captain, I can only remember one time where we just couldn't agree and turned in different scorecards. (and it was just about number of timeouts used.)
 

Shawn Armstrong

AZB deceased - stopped posting 5/13/2022
Silver Member
Serious question: Do the scorekeepers not get together after each individual match and compare and make sure that the innings and safeties are correct and marked the same on each team's score sheet? That's how we do it in my league and I just figured it was that way everywhere.

For example, a common conversation after the first match the two scorekeepers get together

"I had 3 innings there"

"Yep, me too. And 3 safeties for my guy and 2 for yours, correct?"

"yep. Your turn to put up, who you going with?"

In 2 years as a captain, I can only remember one time where we just couldn't agree and turned in different scorecards. (and it was just about number of timeouts used.)

You actually aren’t supposed to do this. Helps to mask the problem. Don’t compare innings and safeties. Points, yes. But nothing else.
 

jokrswylde

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You actually aren’t supposed to do this. Helps to mask the problem. Don’t compare innings and safeties. Points, yes. But nothing else.

Hmm. I never knew that. Makes sense though...we get a bonus point for matching score sheets. I guess if the score sheets match, it saves someone some work at some point.
 

Shawn Armstrong

AZB deceased - stopped posting 5/13/2022
Silver Member
Hmm. I never knew that. Makes sense though...we get a bonus point for matching score sheets. I guess if the score sheets match, it saves someone some work at some point.

If a team is constantly not marking their safeties, it’ll only show up if the sheets don’t match. And that’s a first I’ve heard of points for matching sheets. We get bonus points for paying on time. But nothing for sheets matching.
 

jokrswylde

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If a team is constantly not marking their safeties, it’ll only show up if the sheets don’t match. And that’s a first I’ve heard of points for matching sheets. We get bonus points for paying on time. But nothing for sheets matching.

Yep, if our start and end times, innings, safeties, and scores match, each team gets a bonus point.
 
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