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Patrick Johnson
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06-27-2019, 05:09 PM

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Originally Posted by z0nt0n3r View Post
no i don't mean the cue position relative to the head and eyes,i mean the placement of the cue relative to the correct aim line.
They're not the same?

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z0nt0n3r
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06-27-2019, 05:31 PM

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Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
They're not the same?

pj
chgo
no i don't think they are.one can have the cue under his correct vision center when down on the shot but the cue placed slightly across the line of the shot and not on it.now the correct head alignment in relation to the shot line when the player is getting down on the shot from the standing position does increase the chances of placing the cue on the correct line but i think it's mostly has to do with the visual perception of the player and some players will struggle even if their vision center alignment is correct from the standing position all the way when down on the shot.like i said i think to some degree either a player has this skill or he doesn't.

Last edited by z0nt0n3r; 06-27-2019 at 05:33 PM.
  
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06-28-2019, 05:10 AM

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Originally Posted by z0nt0n3r View Post
also i'm wondering,let's say that your main issue is that you can't place the cue on the line of aim consistently.i would say that this problem mostly depends on your visual perception.so how exactly is an instructor going to fix this?there isn't a quick fix and i think to some degree it's either 'you have it or you don't'.
Yes, some players seem to just fall into it and others have to work harder. But some of the world's greatest sports achievers claimed they had to work harder than their peers to do what seems to come naturally to others, so it's definitely doable.

To answer your question, it depends on why you wouldn't be putting your cue on the line of aim consistently. You have to get to the root of the cause before making any decisions on how to address the issue. A good instructor would be able to help you figure out why you're doing that. There are a lot more possible reasons than you may think.
  
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Patrick Johnson
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06-28-2019, 08:22 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by z0nt0n3r View Post
...one can have the cue under his correct vision center when down on the shot but the cue placed slightly across the line of the shot and not on it.
I think you're misinterpreting the meaning of "vision center" - its definition includes "seeing a straight shot as straight". In other words, if the cue looks straight but isn't, then you haven't found your vision center. The techniques for finding your vision center specifically take that into account.

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06-28-2019, 10:40 AM

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Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
I think you're misinterpreting the meaning of "vision center" - its definition includes "seeing a straight shot as straight". In other words, if the cue looks straight but isn't, then you haven't found your vision center. The techniques for finding your vision center specifically take that into account.

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no,in my case i was seeing the cue slightly angled on most shots but because i couldn't find what was causing it,i kept shooting with that flaw and was twisting the wrist to correct it.
  
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Patrick Johnson
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06-28-2019, 11:57 AM

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Originally Posted by z0nt0n3r View Post
no,in my case i was seeing the cue slightly angled on most shots but because i couldn't find what was causing it
Have you tried any of the ways of finding your "vision center" described by Dr. Dave on the site I linked? At least one of them is specifically designed to fix your problem.

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06-28-2019, 02:38 PM

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Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
Have you tried any of the ways of finding your "vision center" described by Dr. Dave on the site I linked? At least one of them is specifically designed to fix your problem.

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i've done this test at 6:45.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFWYjk-qLhM
  
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Organizing key fundamentals sequentially
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Organizing key fundamentals sequentially - 06-30-2019, 09:58 AM

"one can have the cue under his correct vision center when down on the shot but the cue placed slightly across the line of the shot and not on it.now the correct head alignment in relation to the shot line when the player is getting down on the shot from the standing position"

The part where you say the cue can be placed across the line then the head alignment is over the shot line is revealing. You also say you are seeing the cue angled in another post.

These are descriptions of your experience. Your body is telling you what’s happening. In order to replicate your experience I have to align my arm and cue first then as I get down the cue goes to my center ball perception as I approach the shot. The tip goes to center ball, the head is over the shot line but the cue is perceptually slightly angled.

The description is telling. You are organizing your shot initially around the putting of the arm and cue in a single plane. It needs to be. Center ball is next. Head/vision center over the shot line is next. Alignment is off - angled cue?

The organization needs to start with the shot line first. Align the cue to the line next. This is done from well back from the table moving the cue onto the line as you step forward. Buddy Hall said to put the cue tip down about where you would place your bridge while standing. A hanging cueing arm should be over the cue. This aligns the arm and cue to the shot line. To sense the alignment the head must have been over and down the line all the way from distance. There should be no perception of an angled cue in this standing position. If there is and the cue is over the shot line then reposition your head and make sure the shot line, the cue and head are all aligned before getting down.

Everything else, the bridge hand side, upper body, and bridge hand move to the shot line cue and everything else moves forward and over into the shot. Maintaining the perception of the cue being straight ahead, not angled is key for you, based on your description.

The shot line as the organizing principle is the main insight. As each element, the vision, the cue etc. is added, it moves to the line. Once there, everything else moves to the line. A vertical arm, the bridge all end up there. The vision center should also confirm that point of view.

Your fundamentals and mindset are right. It’s the choreography of the steps that turns it into the dance of the balls. Hope this helps.

Last edited by Imac007; 06-30-2019 at 10:07 AM.
  
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07-01-2019, 11:30 AM

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Originally Posted by Imac007 View Post
"one can have the cue under his correct vision center when down on the shot but the cue placed slightly across the line of the shot and not on it.now the correct head alignment in relation to the shot line when the player is getting down on the shot from the standing position"

The part where you say the cue can be placed across the line then the head alignment is over the shot line is revealing. You also say you are seeing the cue angled in another post.

These are descriptions of your experience. Your body is telling you whatís happening. In order to replicate your experience I have to align my arm and cue first then as I get down the cue goes to my center ball perception as I approach the shot. The tip goes to center ball, the head is over the shot line but the cue is perceptually slightly angled.

The description is telling. You are organizing your shot initially around the putting of the arm and cue in a single plane. It needs to be. Center ball is next. Head/vision center over the shot line is next. Alignment is off - angled cue?

The organization needs to start with the shot line first. Align the cue to the line next. This is done from well back from the table moving the cue onto the line as you step forward. Buddy Hall said to put the cue tip down about where you would place your bridge while standing. A hanging cueing arm should be over the cue. This aligns the arm and cue to the shot line. To sense the alignment the head must have been over and down the line all the way from distance. There should be no perception of an angled cue in this standing position. If there is and the cue is over the shot line then reposition your head and make sure the shot line, the cue and head are all aligned before getting down.

Everything else, the bridge hand side, upper body, and bridge hand move to the shot line cue and everything else moves forward and over into the shot. Maintaining the perception of the cue being straight ahead, not angled is key for you, based on your description.

The shot line as the organizing principle is the main insight. As each element, the vision, the cue etc. is added, it moves to the line. Once there, everything else moves to the line. A vertical arm, the bridge all end up there. The vision center should also confirm that point of view.

Your fundamentals and mindset are right. Itís the choreography of the steps that turns it into the dance of the balls. Hope this helps.
so in your opinion i should focus on keeping the cue on the line while standing and ditch the slight bridge/backhand adjustments when down on the shot?is it even possible to always land on the line perfectly without these small adjustments?

here are 2 videos of me shooting straight-in shots.this is before i started to twist the hips more and my shoulders were a bit square to the shot so i had a slight chicken wing.even though the cue seems to be moving relatively straight,i have a small twist in the stroke to get the cue on the correct line because the cue is slightly angled from the correct line.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1kSrFRhFpU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tw6mEpIYyXw
  
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07-01-2019, 05:13 PM

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Originally Posted by z0nt0n3r View Post
...this is before i started to twist the hips more and my shoulders were a bit square to the shot so i had a slight chicken wing.even though the cue seems to be moving relatively straight,i have a small twist in the stroke to get the cue on the correct line because the cue is slightly angled from the correct line.
I think you're on the right track by working with your stance to find the body position most conducive to the stroke alignment you want. In order to get all the key checkpoints (grip hand, elbow, back shoulder, head, bridge) comfortably and reliably in the "shot plane", some stance engineering is often needed.

For me the keys were getting my hips out of the way, rotating and raising my back shoulder a little to get the stick in the right position under my eyes, and finding the elbow position most conducive to a grooved stroke on that line. Lots of tinkering.

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07-01-2019, 05:19 PM

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Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
I think you're on the right track by working with your stance to find the body position most conducive to the stroke alignment you want. In order to get all the key checkpoints (grip hand, elbow, back shoulder, head, bridge) comfortably and reliably in the "shot plane", some stance engineering is often needed.

For me the keys were getting my hips out of the way, rotating and raising my back shoulder a little to get the stick in the right position under my eyes, and finding the elbow position most conducive to a grooved stroke on that line. Lots of tinkering.

pj
chgo
yes i have done similar things too to find the ideal body position.btw,
can you view the videos in the above links or is it not available?
  
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07-01-2019, 06:33 PM

I’ve PM’d you.
  
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Patrick Johnson
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07-01-2019, 07:31 PM

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yes i have done similar things too to find the ideal body position.btw,
can you view the videos in the above links or is it not available?
Viewed them just now. I'm no stroke expert, but I didn't notice any glaring stroke problems.

What I did notice is that it looks like on both shots you lined up with your tip a little right of center on the CB (from your view), causing the CB to squirt a little to your left.

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07-02-2019, 08:28 AM

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Originally Posted by z0nt0n3r View Post
no i don't think they are.one can have the cue under his correct vision center when down on the shot but the cue placed slightly across the line of the shot and not on it.now the correct head alignment in relation to the shot line when the player is getting down on the shot from the standing position does increase the chances of placing the cue on the correct line but i think it's mostly has to do with the visual perception of the player and some players will struggle even if their vision center alignment is correct from the standing position all the way when down on the shot.like i said i think to some degree either a player has this skill or he doesn't.
The shot line is the shot line and remains that way until the balls are moved. Your either on that line or not, obviously not and you already know this.

Try taking some yard string or something similar that won't damage the table to create the shot line between the rail to cue ball and cue ball to object ball. Creating a visual that you can physically see as your stepping into the shot. I've never done this, but has helped some others.
Stand back, view the shot line, step into the shot/shot line and get down on that line with your tip just barely touching the cue ball. Don't shoot the ball, stand up and repeat. Repetitions.

You want to find that stance/alignment that gets you on that line and drill that into your subconscious afterwards. If you simply can't get on that line, I'd seek instruction from a reputable stroke instructor at this point. The more knowledge, the better. Good luck

One thing that I always liked to do, is put a spot of some kind/marker in the center of the corner pocket. I always used a pocket reducer, the center of the rolled wire is perfectly centered in the pocket. After striking the cue ball, I'm visualizing my tip following/blasting through the cue ball, object ball and center pocket.
  
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07-02-2019, 08:32 AM

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Viewed them just now. I'm no stroke expert, but I didn't notice any glaring stroke problems.

What I did notice is that it looks like on both shots you lined up with your tip a little right of center on the CB (from your view), causing the CB to squirt a little to your left.

pj
chgo
yes like i said sometimes i line up a hair to the right or left of where i intend to hit and some other times with the cue angled.but at least i'm slowly fixing the problem
  
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