5 SVB US open titles - 5 points

Petros Andrikop · Oct 22, 2016

1. A historic achievement by SVB with definitely more to come. Congratulations, well deserved.

2. Congratulations to all the people organizing a successful event worthy of the heritage of its late founder, not an easy task.

3. One more proof about the need for the game to return to winner break format, without racking your own though. Better show and protection of the best players will protect the game in the years to come.

4. Not possible to have an absolute comparison to championship play in the past, it’s a different game nowdays in many aspects.

5. Enough with the fiction of “anti – SVB movement”. There has never been such a movement, our Pool friends in US just overreact to the fact US is not the #1 Pool power in the world anymore, and people around here in Europe overreact to this overreaction, and so on..

Petros

Bob Jewett · Oct 23, 2016

Petros Andrikop said:
...
3. One more proof about the need for the game to return to winner break format, without racking your own though. Better show and protection of the best players will protect the game in the years to come.
...

I agree that it gives a better show for people who like to see x-packs, but it turns out that winner breaks/alternate breaks give the same predicted probability of the stronger player winning. This is an amazing result, but if you look at a few cases you can see why it is true.

Petros Andrikop · Oct 23, 2016

Bob Jewett said:
I agree that it gives a better show for people who like to see x-packs, but it turns out that winner breaks/alternate breaks give the same predicted probability of the stronger player winning. This is an amazing result, but if you look at a few cases you can see why it is true.

Thank you for your reply, always a pleasure to have input from people with deep knowledge of the game.
The stats released after another strong tournament have demolished the myth of "there won't be enough chances for both players in continuous break format", you are right that in the long run better players still win more, however:
- X-packs remain more impressive to the spectators
- On continuous break better players would rarely lose a match they are not supposed to against an inferior player. Better players are not protected anymore and this is not good for the game, not in big tournaments.

JAM · Oct 23, 2016

Yay, Shane! I feel asleep last night early and missed the entire show.

What a great way to start my day!

USA, ALL THE WAY!

Bob Jewett · Oct 23, 2016

Petros Andrikop said:
...
- On continuous break better players would rarely lose a match they are not supposed to against an inferior player. Better players are not protected anymore and this is not good for the game, not in big tournaments.

I guess I was not clear in what I said above. According to an analysis of the probabilities involved, the better player will have exactly, and I mean exactly, the same chance of winning against any level of competition with either format. Let me state the same thing a different way. If Shane is a 74.37% expected winner against Joe under a winner-breaks format, he is a 74.37% expected winner against Joe under an alternate-breaks format. I did not expect this to be the case when I looked at it, but that's how the probabilities work out.

This analysis of course ignores psychological issues like the fabled "momentum" phenomenon in sports.

Petros Andrikop · Oct 23, 2016

Bob Jewett said:
I guess I was not clear in what I said above. According to an analysis of the probabilities involved, the better player will have exactly, and I mean exactly, the same chance of winning against any level of competition with either format. Let me state the same thing a different way. If Shane is a 74.37% expected winner against Joe under a winner-breaks format, his is a 74.37% expected winner against Joe under an alternate-breaks format. I did not expect this to be the case when I looked at it, but that's how the probabilities work out.

This analysis of course ignores psychological issues like the fabled "momentum" phenomenon in sports.

I haven't seen such an analysis, no reason to doubt it, I'm not sure though if it's extensive enough. I'm also not sure if it "proves" that SVB has equal chances winning tournaments with alternate break as in tournaments with continuous break (such as the US open), I don't keep statistics but I don't think that stands.
What I do know is this:

Even if we accept that break format doesn't count, then why in the first place did we have such a change in the game, especially when the show is less impressive?

I don't accept that continuous break is better for "those who like it", from what I see in Clubs even players rarely watch whole matches anymore with alternate break, it's simply boring.

I also remember the history behind the change: back in the days of continuous break the usual suspects used to win most of the tournaments, at least in Europe. Participations decreased due to that and something had to be done, and it was done..

I even see it on myself: I do not practice anymore, and still from time to time I beat top players in my country, only due to this alternate break format.

Back in my good days of pool playing you had to work for months in order to beat such guys, you knew that a simple mistake would send you to the chair for at least 20 min, there is no comparison stress wise for the inferior player today.

You had to build the capability of running a pack, running a pack is not just a matter of good breaks, you had to know every shot.

Now you only need to run one no matter what mistake you did in the previous frame, it's enough to get back to the game, and with a bit of luck if you get a lead it's much more difficult for the opponent to overcome it.

It's like cutting all trees to the same height, and that's not good for any sport.

You may increase general level of play and participations for now, but what about the future?..

Dimeball · Oct 23, 2016

Petros Andrikop said:
I haven't seen such an analysis, no reason to doubt it, I'm not sure though if it's extensive enough. I'm also not sure if it "proves" that SVB has equal chances winning tournaments with alternate break as in tournaments with continuous break (such as the US open), I don't keep statistics but I don't think that stands.
What I do know is this:

Even if we accept that break format doesn't count, then why in the first place did we have such a change in the game, especially when the show is less impressive?

I don't accept that continuous break is better for "those who like it", from what I see in Clubs even players rarely watch whole matches anymore with alternate break, it's simply boring.

I also remember the history behind the change: back in the days of continuous break the usual suspects used to win most of the tournaments, at least in Europe. Participations decreased due to that and something had to be done, and it was done..

I even see it on myself: I do not practice anymore, and still from time to time I beat top players in my country, only due to this alternate break format.

Back in my good days of pool playing you had to work for months in order to beat such guys, you knew that a simple mistake would send you to the chair for at least 20 min, there is no comparison stress wise for the inferior player today.

You had to build the capability of running a pack, running a pack is not just a matter of good breaks, you had to know every shot.

Now you only need to run one no matter what mistake you did in the previous frame, it's enough to get back to the game, and with a bit of luck if you get a lead it's much more difficult for the opponent to overcome it.

It's like cutting all trees to the same height, and that's not good for any sport.

You may increase general level of play and participations for now, but what about the future?..

I nominate this guy President of the new world pool order! Totally agree with you on the break format, this isn't tennis, if you don't get a shot, practice the lag more!
Amen brother, preach it on!

Petros Andrikop · Oct 23, 2016

Dimeball said:
I nominate this guy President of the new world pool order! Totally agree with you on the break format, this isn't tennis, if you don't get a shot, practice the lag more!
Amen brother, preach it on!

Not sure if you are joking (no problem if you do, and no "world presidency" needed), anyway there's plenty of chances with continuous break too according to statistics.

BRussell · Oct 23, 2016

Bob Jewett said:
I agree that it gives a better show for people who like to see x-packs, but it turns out that winner breaks/alternate breaks give the same predicted probability of the stronger player winning. This is an amazing result, but if you look at a few cases you can see why it is true.

I'm sure that's true using a binomial analysis, but that assume independence. Did you look at this taking into account the non-independence of the events? Or did you use an empirical analysis?

Poolshootindon · Oct 23, 2016

Alternate break

I like the alternate break format. Pool is the only game that i can think of where an opponent can come to the game and not have a chance to play. Congrats to Shane for being this years champion and i hope he wins many more.

spartan · Oct 23, 2016

Poolshootindon said:
I like the alternate break format. Pool is the only game that i can think of where an opponent can come to the game and not have a chance to play. Congrats to Shane for being this years champion and i hope he wins many more.

I also like alt break cos it is fairer.
Winners break is only exciting if there are packages which is rare if the breaks rules and tables breaks tough like this US Open
whereas alt break is more intense as each player focuses on holding his break and not letting other player steals his break. In winners break, player can get complacent thinking he can catch up no matter how far behind and the chance to comeback may never come. Incredible comebacks like Shaw v Ko Pin Yi and Chang are very rare :smile:

pt109 · Oct 23, 2016

Poolshootindon said:
I like the alternate break format. Pool is the only game that i can think of where an opponent can come to the game and not have a chance to play. Congrats to Shane for being this years champion and i hope he wins many more.

spartan said:
I also like alt break cos it is fairer.
Winners break is only exciting if there are packages which is rare if the breaks rules and tables breaks tough like this US Open
whereas alt break is more intense as each player focuses on holding his break and not letting other player steals his break. In winners break, player can get complacent thinking he can catch up no matter how far behind and the chance to comeback may never come. Incredible comebacks like Shaw v Ko Pin Yi and Chang are very rare :smile:

I dislike alternate break intensely.
I'll give up the table when I miss.

Can you imagine Mosconi having to give up the table after running 50.....
....maybe you guys think running 526 is unfair to his opponent?

Alexis Arguello was famous for his 7-punch combinations....
...should he be forced to trade shots?

Should Earl not get paid for his 10-pack?

NINE-BALL....IF YOU MISS, YOU LOSE

JAM · Oct 23, 2016

pt109 said:
I dislike alternate break intensely.
I'll give up the table when I miss.

Can you imagine Mosconi having to give up the table after running 50.....
....maybe you guys think running 526 is unfair to his opponent?

Alexis Arguello was famous for his 7-punch combinations....
...should he be forced to trade shots?

Should Earl not get paid for his 10-pack?

NINE-BALL....IF YOU MISS, YOU LOSE

Tap, tap, tap! Right on the money [pun intended]! :grin-square:

Ken_4fun · Oct 23, 2016

Poolshootindon said:
I like the alternate break format. Pool is the only game that i can think of where an opponent can come to the game and not have a chance to play. Congrats to Shane for being this years champion and i hope he wins many more.

I was interviewing Allen Hopkins for a magazine years ago and he said that winner breaks was terrible. I tell this so JAM wont criticize me because Allen said it and I didnt.

Allen's example he gave me is imagine a football game where a team scores and then they get the ball again....silly isnt it?

I tell what loser breaks does, it almost guarantees that the scores will be closer.

I think I would love it as a fan and hate it if I was a player......

Ken

King T · Oct 23, 2016

You got that right!

Ken_4fun said:
I tell what loser breaks does, it almost guarantees that the scores will be closer.

I think I would love it as a fan and hate it if I was a player......

Ken

People who don't like alternate break probroly don't play very much Pool. Try flying to California from Florida and going to and out with out shooting because your draw was SVB and Alex and then tell how much you don't like alternate break.

You'll never get Action in One Pocket without the alternate break and its the best game in the world.

jay helfert · Oct 23, 2016

Ken_4fun said:
I was interviewing Allen Hopkins for a magazine years ago and he said that winner breaks was terrible. I tell this so JAM wont criticize me because Allen said it and I didnt.

Allen's example he gave me is imagine a football game where a team scores and then they get the ball again....silly isnt it?

I tell what loser breaks does, it almost guarantees that the scores will be closer.

I think I would love it as a fan and hate it if I was a player......

Ken

Ask Allen how much he liked it when Lou Butera ran 150 and out on him in 21 minutes. He didn't get to shoot much that match either! :thumbup:

Straight Pool has been played that way forever. You can lose a match just sitting in your chair. Same way with 9-Ball. This makes Pool unique among sports. There is more pressure each time you get a chance at the table because it may be your last chance. This is why Pool may be the toughest game of all.

Nothing is more exciting imo then seeing a top player string racks and his opponent come to that table and do the same thing to climb back into the match. The second highlight of this year's Open (after Shane's dramatic victory #5) was Jayson winning the last seven games in a row to come back from 10-4 down to win 11-10. The crowd was going crazy!

There are just as many if not more hill-hill matches with winner breaks as there are with alternate breaks. Let the rules guys figure that out and explain it to us.

BRussell · Oct 23, 2016

jay helfert said:
Nothing is more exciting imo then seeing a top player string racks and his opponent come to that table and do the same thing to climb back into the match. The second highlight of this year's Open (after Shane's dramatic victory #5) was Jayson winning the last seven games in a row to come back from 10-4 down to win 11-10. The crowd was going crazy!

This is the best argument in favor of winner breaks. And Jayson came back from down 10-4 against Chang too, but lost the hill-hill match.

I just don't care for it when they're soft breaking and playing position on the 1-ball every time, which is why I think the combination of tougher break rules plus winner breaks is ideal.

pt109 · Oct 23, 2016

King T said:
People who don't like alternate break probroly don't play very much Pool. Try flying to California from Florida and going to and out with out shooting because your draw was SVB and Alex and then tell how much you don't like alternate break.

You'll never get Action in One Pocket without the alternate break and its the best game in the world.

A high mileage pool player here...
...if a player lays an eight-pack on me.....I pay him.

Even at one-hole and snooker...I always offered to play winner break.

This "everybody wins a prize" thinking is not catering to excellence.

Get_A_Grip · Oct 23, 2016

King T said:
People who don't like alternate break probroly don't play very much Pool. Try flying to California from Florida and going to and out with out shooting because your draw was SVB and Alex and then tell how much you don't like alternate break.

You'll never get Action in One Pocket without the alternate break and its the best game in the world.

I can almost guarantee you that SVB doesn't like alternate break, and he's played quite a bit of pool :thumbup:

jasonlaus · Oct 23, 2016

King T said:
People who don't like alternate break probroly don't play very much Pool. Try flying to California from Florida and going to and out with out shooting because your draw was SVB and Alex and then tell how much you don't like alternate break.

You'll never get Action in One Pocket without the alternate break and its the best game in the world.

If you're playing Shane and Alex you are going 2 and out no matter what the breaking rules are. Lol. Why would you fly to CA to be guaranteed to finish no better than 3rd and I'm assuming a lot worse than that.

One pocket is an entirely different game. Nice try though

5 SVB US open titles - 5 points

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