Getting Rid of Pendulum Stroke. Digicue Loves it.

jrctherake said:

Dont have to buy the device. A friend of mine did. I used it and pegged all but one parameter out within a couple minutes.

Guess what, I play my best when I dont "think" about my stroke. The VERY SECOND I start "THINKING" while in stance, well...... IM DONE!!!!!

Example:

With Digicue on my cue I just beat 10 ball ghost in short races to 7, 8 and 9.

Without the device bothering me, I torch the 10 ball ghost (my longest race is 25 thus far).

I agree it will help people like you but people that are at certain levels would be I'll advised to do so.

If it works, dont mess with it.

YMMV and obviously it did so keep the gadgets on, improve as best you can AND THEN:

At some point post up an actual race to at least 5 or more in 10 ball so WE SCARED rabbits can see how much the Digicue has improved:

GAME.......not just your STROKE!

I posted that with respect or at least that was my intent.

FYI, theRAKE is not a people person.

Click to expand...

Most people's games will fall apart while they work on things that should be subconscious at a high level. Especially your stroke. I'm actually surprised when digicue customers tell me about instant improvement, because it definately took me a while to reassemble the car after I fixed the engine. My old stroke actually caused me rotator cuff pain, so I definately learned something wrong in the beginning. With the digicue AND instructor help I'm back where I want to be. It's a good benchmark.

The line of thinking that if you don't naturally figure something out on your own than you might as well condemn yourself to a plateau is quite negative.

If you have any questions about the DigiCue please PM me.

bbb said:

hi RAKE
you are my kind of guy.....:thumbup:
you play at a high level
and are not afraid to play for money.....:thumbup:
they dont make guys like you much anymore.....:banghead:
if you can play you dont need digicue,,sorry ob cues
cause it doesnt matter your stroke flaws if you can get out from anywhere
lee trevino made 12 million in prize money ....his stroke is not one you would teach
jim fuirick net worth is 60 million,,you would not teach his stroke either
BUT
FOR PLAYERS WHO WILL NEVER BE CHAMPS
sorry guys
but i know you would like to improve
the more accurate your stroke is the better you will play....
so gadgets like the digicue MAY
help you on your journey
but praireie dog may be alittle too pedantic
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/pedantic
but i know him and he is passionate about pool and a nice guy...:thumbup:

Click to expand...

Hey BBB,

I'm sure Prairie Dog is passionate about pool but so are 99% of the members here.

Now, I want say 99% of the members here are nice... lol... just kidding. Most here are actually very good people in my experience.

BTW, thanks but I wouldn't say I play at a high level at anything.

As for PD not seeing the forest for the trees, I agree.

For the biggest part he comes across as a good guy, he is just so damn pushy and most folks dont like to be pushed.

As for OB.... lol... that ship is sunk with me. Their CS has been so bad I cancelled two orders in last month because of:

No response to email and then told a total different delivery date than was agreed upon. Not just a few days either, I'm talking almost two weeks.... so I cancelled the orders.

I'm done with OB.

nataddrho said:

Most people's games will fall apart while they work on things that should be subconscious at a high level. Especially your stroke. I'm actually surprised when digicue customers tell me about instant improvement, because it definately took me a while to reassemble the car after I fixed the engine. My old stroke actually caused me rotator cuff pain, so I definately learned something wrong in the beginning. With the digicue AND instructor help I'm back where I want to be. It's a good benchmark.

The line of thinking that if you don't naturally figure something out on your own than you might as well condemn yourself to a plateau is quite negative.

If you have any questions about the DigiCue please PM me.

Click to expand...

I agree sir. I may shoot you an email at some point.

Thanks

nataddrho said:

Most people's games will fall apart while they work on things that should be subconscious at a high level. Especially your stroke. I'm actually surprised when digicue customers tell me about instant improvement, because it definately took me a while to reassemble the car after I fixed the engine. My old stroke actually caused me rotator cuff pain, so I definately learned something wrong in the beginning. With the digicue AND instructor help I'm back where I want to be. It's a good benchmark.

The line of thinking that if you don't naturally figure something out on your own than you might as well condemn yourself to a plateau is quite negative.

If you have any questions about the DigiCue please PM me.

Click to expand...

Great analogy. You have to reassemble the car after fixing the engine...

Every small tweak I make, it takes time to assimilate.. sometimes weeks.

Prairie dog said:

Going back to piston stroke. My piston stroke is straight and this is what I had many years ago. Have any of you tried to get rid of the pendulum stroke? Post what you have; a pendulum, a piston stroke, or do you even know?

Click to expand...

Yeah, I realized this is a 1 year old thread being revived, but I thought it better to search, find, and post on this thread than to start a new thread on an identical topic. After reading through this entire thread, I don't understand why this thread was hijacked in to a discussion of opinions regarding the digicue device. Although it was mentioned in the title of the OP's post, there was no mention of it in the very short and straight forward original text.

I've been in the worst prolonged pool slump of my adult life for the last number of months, and I've tried virtually everything I can think of, unsuccessfully, to work my way out of it. At 63, I've played this game for over 50 years, using a pendulum stroke - keeping my upper arm, elbow and shoulder fairly quiet through my forward stroke and releasing my wrist as the butt of the cue comes up towards my chest and the tip of the cue follows down in to the cloth on my follow through - what I assume is described as the typical pendulum stroke.

My last few sessions I've experimented with the piston stroke - no real difference in my backstroke, followed by a longer pause than normal, then firing my hand, forearm and elbow towards the target on my forward stroke and follow through. I assume this is what is called a piston stroke that is used by a number of players, but a stroke I have never even considered giving a try.

So far, early shotmaking results have been very exciting and that's an understatement! I think the biggest challenge for me is going to be figuring out how to utilize this stroke on softer pace shots, particularly safeties. Is it possible for a player who has played with a pendulum stroke for 50+ years to successfully switch to a piston stroke? Has anyone here experienced any success doing this? Also, is it possible for a player using the piston stroke to switch off and use a pendulum stroke for the extremely soft paced shots - generally safeties? Thanks

ChrisinNC said:

Is it possible for a player who has played with a pendulum stroke for 50+ years to successfully switch to a piston stroke? Has anyone here experienced any success doing this? Also, is it possible for a player using the piston stroke to switch off and use a pendulum stroke for the extremely soft paced shots - generally safeties? Thanks

Click to expand...

I havent played 50+ years but i made the painful transition. consciously sticking to a new pre-shot routine and not letting instinct take over helps break the pattern

i can still switch to my old stroke if i need be, i believe u will be able to as well but u dont have to. a short pull for soft paced shots does the job. it feels weird at first but u just need to let your arm get used to the feel of doing it.

up stroke vs pendulum

Last twenty yrs I have slowly moved into an open stance for Straight Pool, open stance will promote the up stroke, however I went through some lower back issues from learning how to incorporate this into my game. My advice is to not think much bout the stroke. When cue ball resides near the cushion or elevated over another object ball - the upstroke becomes more natural. However on certain shots (break shots) I choose to pot with more speed i.e. (trying to get some deflection) I close my stance as this helps me get my body into the shot - resulting in more powerful follow true. Hope this helps, I would only add that if player is practicing or competing on a much slower table the open stance could become a detriment.

BeiberLvr said:

I agree that most (if not all) pros don't decide which stroke they will use. Since so many pros do drop the elbow, and very few have ever received formal instruction. It only makes sense that people believe the elbow drop to be the most natural way of stroking.

I disagree slightly with your last statement. If the Digicue, or any other device, can provide an accurate measure of one's stroke and provide instant feedback on what's wrong. Why wouldn't someone, regardless of how good they are, at least consider making a few changes? Of course, I am assuming that a good Digicue rating always correlates with a good stroke.

Click to expand...

Agreed. The elbow drop doesnt hurt a thing....AS LONG AS it happens after the cue ball is gone.

BC21 said:

You're right, but there've been a few great players with very nontraditional stroke fundamentals. Keith Mccready comes to mind with his sidearm style. Ralph Greenleaf had a stroke that moved all over the place.
But these guys hit that cb dead straight every time.

I played a guy a few years ago in Fayetteville NC. He had the oddest looking stroke I'd ever seen - curled his grip hand up toward his chest with his elbow jutting out at some rediculous angle. He asked if I wanted to hit some and I thought there was no way a guy with a stroke like that would be consistent enough to beat me, so I happily said, "Sure, why not." He proved to me that great players make up their own stroke fundamentals. Lol

Click to expand...

There's a guy in my league that does exactly that. Not a world beater but can play pretty sporty. No way I could do it.

Chris...I cannot even imagine someone wanting to switch to a piston stroke...especially after developing a consistent pendulum stroke for many years. The piston stroke offers NO advantages, and is a complex mechanism, making it much more prone to small errors in timing. The pendulum stroke is much simpler, more accurate, and far more repeatable, without years of practice. I really need to get to Boone and put you through an extensive video analysis.

Scott Lee
2019 PBIA Instructor of the Year
Director, SPF National Pool School Tour

ChrisinNC said:

Yeah, I realized this is a 1 year old thread being revived, but I thought it better to search, find, and post on this thread than to start a new thread on an identical topic. After reading through this entire thread, I don't understand why this thread was hijacked in to a discussion of opinions regarding the digicue device. Although it was mentioned in the title of the OP's post, there was no mention of it in the very short and straight forward original text.

I've been in the worst prolonged pool slump of my adult life for the last number of months, and I've tried virtually everything I can think of, unsuccessfully, to work my way out of it. At 63, I've played this game for over 50 years, using a pendulum stroke - keeping my upper arm, elbow and shoulder fairly quiet through my forward stroke and releasing my wrist as the butt of the cue comes up towards my chest and the tip of the cue follows down in to the cloth on my follow through - what I assume is described as the typical pendulum stroke.

My last few sessions I've experimented with the piston stroke - no real difference in my backstroke, followed by a longer pause than normal, then firing my hand, forearm and elbow towards the target on my forward stroke and follow through. I assume this is what is called a piston stroke that is used by a number of players, but a stroke I have never even considered giving a try.

So far, early shotmaking results have been very exciting and that's an understatement! I think the biggest challenge for me is going to be figuring out how to utilize this stroke on softer pace shots, particularly safeties. Is it possible for a player who has played with a pendulum stroke for 50+ years to successfully switch to a piston stroke? Has anyone here experienced any success doing this? Also, is it possible for a player using the piston stroke to switch off and use a pendulum stroke for the extremely soft paced shots - generally safeties? Thanks

Click to expand...

Danny Harriman said:

Last twenty yrs I have slowly moved into an open stance for Straight Pool, open stance will promote the up stroke, however I went through some lower back issues from learning how to incorporate this into my game. My advice is to not think much bout the stroke. When cue ball resides near the cushion or elevated over another object ball - the upstroke becomes more natural. However on certain shots (break shots) I choose to pot with more speed i.e. (trying to get some deflection) I close my stance as this helps me get my body into the shot - resulting in more powerful follow true. Hope this helps, I would only add that if player is practicing or competing on a much slower table the open stance could become a detriment.

Click to expand...

thats interesting danny. if you're faced with a slower table in a competitive game do you generally stick with your open stance or do you close up?

No need to replace, both are very acceptable and capable of making balls. I use both, actually use a

piston on softer shots, safe and such. Each their own. I even catch myself slipping sometimes..I don't

but the guys I play with do anyways. Ask me what am I doing? Don't know is usually the correct answer.

I learned the slip stroke playing and watching Cowboy Moore growing up, then the elbow drop piston

later on. The pendulum is the newest, hence why I use the piston for touch shots, (more comfortable).

It is fun playing a game where you can switch strokes for different shots, and not even realize you are

doing it.

i have answer

pinkspider said:

thats interesting danny. if you're faced with a slower table in a competitive game do you generally stick with your open stance or do you close up?

Click to expand...

Table can have fast cloth and still play humid - break shots in 14.1 that I hit with more power I bend both knee's (traditional Pocket Billiard stance) My stance is still under construction, for instance bank pool (my best game) if played properly requires more of a power stroke so I position my feet to the left (rt hander) and both knee's slightly bent i.e. closed stance - on 80% of shots. In past I had a bad habit of raising up when the white was near the cushion I then open up the stance - both toes pointing forward - this helps me stay down. Still working on perfecting my stance and learning. English Snooker (open stance) is best for me when trying to find the center of cue ball for medium to soft hits or as I stated when cue ball resides near the cushion. I think I could help instruct the master instructors - but I am not making any demands here, I do wish the 'hustlers would come through my hometown every once in a while -but sumpin tells me they will ask for a spot with a smile on their face or simply not try their luck. It's hip to be square Digi?

Scott Lee said:

Chris...I cannot even imagine someone wanting to switch to a piston stroke...especially after developing a consistent pendulum stroke for many years. The piston stroke offers NO advantages, and is a complex mechanism, making it much more prone to small errors in timing. The pendulum stroke is much simpler, more accurate, and far more repeatable, without years of practice. I really need to get to Boone and put you through an extensive video analysis.

Scott Lee
2019 PBIA Instructor of the Year
Director, SPF National Pool School Tour

Click to expand...

Regarding a future trip to Boone for you, the sooner the better! It’s hard to possibly communicate how badly and completely I have lost confidence in my pendulum stroke, which I’ve used for 50+ years and never once considered changing. Currently, any given shot is missable at any given time, no matter how easy.

Scott, I appreciate your advice, but for now, with only two practice sessions experimenting with the piston stroke, I’m getting amazing results so far, so there is no chance I’m going to stop giving it a shot. There is no possible way it could’ve been worse than what I have been experiencing.

ChrisinNC said:

Regarding a future trip to Boone for you, the sooner the better! It’s hard to possibly communicate how badly and completely I have lost confidence in my pendulum stroke, which I’ve used for 50+ years and never once considered changing. Currently, any given shot is missable at any given time, no matter how easy.

Scott, I appreciate your advice, but for now, with only two practice sessions experimenting with the piston stroke, I’m getting amazing results so far, so there is no chance I’m going to stop giving it a shot. There is no possible way it could’ve been worse than what I have been experiencing.

Click to expand...

The biggest single mistake that I ever made (physically) was to go all in with a pinned elbow. I play on my ten footer most of the time now and a pinned elbow just doesn’t cut it. For the past year I have been working with elbow drop via Tyler Styer from Johan. My stroke is better and results are beyond amazing. Pinned elbow is still important to learn but 90% of my practice with stroke involves elbow drop regardless of what table I play on. Pinning the elbow is too limiting. I could never RELAX with pinning my elbow in competition. The thing about elbow drop is that you must learn by exaggerating your drop and then more importantly when to drop and when not to drop during play. Johan has developed a set of dynamic exercises that lead to learning to drop the elbow correctly. I will be adding the dynamic exercises to my new curriculum once I resume instruction.

Stan Shuffett

stan shuffett said:

The biggest single mistake that I ever made (physically) was to go all in with a pinned elbow. I play on my ten footer most of the time now and a pinned elbow just doesn’t cut it. For the past year I have been working with elbow drop via Tyler Styer from Johan. My stroke is better and results are beyond amazing. Pinned elbow is still important to learn but 90% of my practice with stroke involves elbow drop regardless of what table I play on. Pinning the elbow is too limiting. I could never RELAX with pinning my elbow in competition. The thing about elbow drop is that you must learn by exaggerating your drop and then more importantly when to drop and when not to drop during play. Johan has developed a set of dynamic exercises that lead to learning to drop the elbow correctly. I will be adding the dynamic exercises to my new curriculum once I resume instruction.

Stan Shuffett

Click to expand...

Stan, I appreciate your feedback and I am encouraged to hear that it is working for you, as I hope it will for me. Interesting the terms you are using – pinned elbow for a pendulum stroke, which makes perfect sense but I’ve never heard it termed that way. Also you describe your piston stroke as an elbow drop. For me it’s more of an elbow fire. My stroke thought is firing my hand, forearm, and elbow straight forward toward the target. I assume / hope this is just two different ways of describing the same stroke?

stan shuffett said:

I play on my ten footer most of the time now and a pinned elbow just doesn’t cut it.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the comments, Stan.

"Doesn't cut it" in what way? Not enough power?

pj
chgo

Patrick Johnson said:

Thanks for the comments, Stan.

"Doesn't cut it" in what way? Not enough power?

pj
chgo

Click to expand...

Not power so much as effortless power. Using the larger muscles is natural and allows for relaxation, particularly at finish. It’s the difference between driving the CB vs striking the CB.

Stan Shuffett

ChrisinNC said:

Stan, I appreciate your feedback and I am encouraged to hear that it is working for you, as I hope it will for me. Interesting the terms you are using – pinned elbow for a pendulum stroke, which makes perfect sense but I’ve never heard it termed that way. Also you describe your piston stroke as an elbow drop. For me it’s more of an elbow fire. My stroke thought is firing my hand, forearm, and elbow straight forward toward the target. I assume / hope this is just two different ways of describing the same stroke?

Click to expand...

Yes, We’re on the same page.

Stan Shuffett

different strokes for different folks

A lot of which stroke works best for you depends on how high or low you are in your stance. Look at video of Minnesota Fats. I haven't looked at his stroke but I'm sure it won't be a pendulum. If your upper arm is parallel to the floor or bent more the pendulum will work. It works best with an extremely low body position, that is as close as you will ever come to locking your shoulder. The higher you rise above upper arm parallel to the floor, the more difficult the pendulum becomes until it becomes impossible.

I bought into the myth the pendulum was a simple stroke for awhile. It isn't. No elbow drop is replaced by movement in your wrist or fingers.(grip) In truth, the pendulum requires better timing, particularly as generally used, than the piston stroke or others with movement in the upper arm. Big muscles and joints moving a little bit are less complicated and more accurate than small muscles and joints moving a lot. What the pendulum is, is easy to teach and troubleshoot as long as your student can get low.

The old school shooters could use the pendulum, they could use the piston, many could slip stroke, they had a few other tricks up their sleeve if they needed them.

I am using the pendulum less and less simply because I am standing straight enough that the elbow usually doesn't feel even slightly pinned. Shooting better. Shooting some shots mighty fine with a slip stroke too.

If you shoot real low to the table you are probably using a pendulum or what I call bunting. You have moved your hand well forward on the stick, your elbow is bent a lot with little movement, and most of the movement in your stroke is in your shoulder.

There are other strokes that can be made to work. It seems like most of the pro's, particularly from a few decades back, had worked out their own idiocentric strokes with a lack of instructors or readily available information.

There isn't only one true way to heaven. Trying as many strokes as you can may let you find something better for you, may let you find something better for certain shots. If nothing else, learning new things always seems to add to what you knew when you go back to what you were doing to begin with.

Somebody had been receiving police pistol instruction for decades. When they shot on my range it was an eye opener. I changed three or four things one behind the other and they were stunned. "Wow, this is so much better than what I have been taught for years!" The same is true of pool. When you restrict yourself to one track you may be restricting yourself from something that is better or will be better for you in coming years.

Hu