How to Use Pivot Point Knowlege To Increase Error Margins

Colin Colenso · Sep 3, 2015

This topic came up on another thread, but I thought it deserved it's own thread. http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=315283&page=3

One doesn't need to be a user of BHE to benefit from using knowledge their cue's pivot point and the effective pivot point, or squerve point for various shots.

When a player strikes a CB left or right of their intended aim on the CB, they are effectively pivoting, when the movement isn't due to a shifting of the bridge hand. They are basically playing unintentional BHE.

We can use this to significantly increase our margin of stroking error in a couple of ways for different types of shots.

On a straightish shot, getting unintended left of right english can throw the OB significantly off path. Also, the off center hitting can change the direction the CB takes.

Hitting left of the CB does NOT however tell us what the resultant path of the CB will be. This depends upon the length of bridge the player is using and how this corresponds to the effective pivot point of the shot.

A short bridge will deflect the CB to the left and a long bridge will deflect it to the right.

Some magic occurs if the bridge is just a little longer than the effective pivot point on a 7/8ths to straight shots. There is a bridge length for these shots, which varies according to the separation of CB and OB, where the CB deflection is perfectly cancelled out by the unintended spin induced throw.

While it's difficult to determine the exact bridge length to achieve this, we can get close enough to significantly increase our margin for stroking error on these shots.

In the case of finer cut shots, the variability in throw for a touch of inside versus a touch of outside is less extreme, so to maximize our margin for error in the case of striking the CB unintentionally off center, bridging AT the effective pivot point, and not an inch or two behind it, is most effective.

So one doesn't need to be a proponent of BHE to use knowledge of Pivot Points and throw to their advantage to reduce the margin for error due to wonky stroking.

Colin

Colin Colenso · Sep 3, 2015

Note that the closer the CB is to the OB, the longer your bridge needs to be, beyond the effective pivot point.

Say the CB and OB are 1 foot apart, I find that bridging at around 18 inches pretty much cancels out the squirt v throw effect. When CB and OB are 5 feet apart, I bridge at about 13 inches, just an inch longer than my effective pivot point for a firm shot.

While some may think this is a bit petty or over-thinking, keep in mind that if one's bridge length is significantly shorter or longer than this error reduction bridge length, then small stroking errors are magnified. such that a 0.5mm stroking error will lead to missing the pot.

When at the Error Reduction Bridge Length, so long as you maintain the suitable speed of shot, hitting anywhere inside the miscue zone will make the pot, so you have about a 2 inch circle into which to stroke, in order to make a properly aligned shot. Blind Freddy with a nervous tremor can achieve this if someone puts his bridge hand in the correct position.

Colin

buckshotshoey · Sep 3, 2015

A bit of info every average player should look into.

Colin Colenso · Sep 3, 2015

buckshotshoey said:
A bit of info every average player should look into.

Appreciate the supportive bump!

I also think that pros can benefit from learning how to implement this, even pro snooker players.

Most pros tend to have bridge lengths that aren't too far from their effective pivot points. I think the reason they don't discover this principle is that they are close enough to this throw v squirt cancellation bridge length, and have accurate enough strokes, that their margin for error is of a similar magnitude to their aiming capability via bridge V positioning.

As a result, it's hard to differentiate the cause of their misses and it's often assumed to be the stroke which led to the error.

If they were confident in applying this stroke error cancellation method, they might be better able to fine tune their bridge V alignment, as they will more readily be able to identify the cause of the miss, and hence correct aiming perception problems without wasting time on trying the fix the problem by messing around with their stroke.

Colin

pletho · Sep 3, 2015

Learn to play by feel and you will be much better than trying to over think things like this through, your mind is nothing but a giant computer with tons of computing power. Just get up there and relax and hit the balls into the pocket using the same cue over and over and over again, just run the balls, and your mind will eventually learn what you should and should not do, it will learn the little details automatically.................

JohnnyP · Sep 4, 2015

Try it, you'll like it.

Joe Tucker uses it. Is he a top pro? No, but he knows stuff.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwVBh73s9js

Colin Colenso · Sep 4, 2015

pletho said:
Learn to play by feel and you will be much better than trying to over think things like this through, your mind is nothing but a giant computer with tons of computing power. Just get up there and relax and hit the balls into the pocket using the same cue over and over and over again, just run the balls, and your mind will eventually learn what you should and should not do, it will learn the little details automatically.................

Clearly learning by feel works and there may hardly be a pro who has adapted pivot point techniques to a significant level into their game.

That said, I think they've learned the hard way, and that there are certain shots, that they could improve their percentages on using some techniques utilizing a pivot.

But as we know, winning 8, 9 and 10 ball is not often a result of making a 40% shot 60% of the time. Usually when lower percentage pot with position is all that is on offer, the player elects a safety or two way option.

In something like a ring game, or similar offensive game, the big shots become a greater factor.

Colin <- Thinks he's learned to play by feel even when being conscious of setting a precise bridge length. (Though it takes some time).

Colin Colenso · Sep 4, 2015

JohnnyP said:
Try it, you'll like it.

Joe Tucker uses it. Is he a top pro? No, but he knows stuff.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwVBh73s9js

This is a perfect demonstration of the 1 foot separation of CB and OB with about 18 inch pivot which allows the squirt to cancel out the throw.

For a longer distance between CB and OB, this pivot length, being much longer (I'm pretty sure) than the natural pivot point of Joe's cue, will squirt the CB away from the required contact point line to the left when hit with right english and vice versa. He'd need to shorten his pivot length. Also, if Joe Played this shot with more power, he'd need to shorten the pivot to some degree as SIT decreases with speed. These things happen whether we use a measured pivot or we attempt to adjust by feel. We just may not be aware of why we have a tendency to miss some shots in certain ways unless we've studied the physics.

Colin

Patrick Johnson · Sep 4, 2015

Colin Colenso said:
Note that the closer the CB is to the OB, the longer your bridge needs to be, beyond the effective pivot point.

Say the CB and OB are 1 foot apart, I find that bridging at around 18 inches pretty much cancels out the squirt v throw effect. When CB and OB are 5 feet apart, I bridge at about 13 inches, just an inch longer than my effective pivot point for a firm shot.

While some may think this is a bit petty or over-thinking, keep in mind that if one's bridge length is significantly shorter or longer than this error reduction bridge length, then small stroking errors are magnified. such that a 0.5mm stroking error will lead to missing the pot.

When at the Error Reduction Bridge Length, so long as you maintain the suitable speed of shot, hitting anywhere inside the miscue zone will make the pot, so you have about a 2 inch circle into which to stroke, in order to make a properly aligned shot. Blind Freddy with a nervous tremor can achieve this if someone puts his bridge hand in the correct position.

Colin

Interesting stuff, Colin. If my pivot point wasn't 20 inches I'd give it a try.

By the way, in the part highlighted in blue did you mean a 1 inch circle?

pj
chgo

Patrick Johnson · Sep 4, 2015

pletho said:
Learn to play by feel and you will be much better than trying to over think things like this through

You don't think things through while you're playing - you think them through while you're talking about them and practicing.

Everybody learns to play by feel. Those who think things through learn to play better by feel.

pj
chgo

336Robin · Sep 4, 2015

Natural BHE

pletho said:
Learn to play by feel and you will be much better than trying to over think things like this through, your mind is nothing but a giant computer with tons of computing power. Just get up there and relax and hit the balls into the pocket using the same cue over and over and over again, just run the balls, and your mind will eventually learn what you should and should not do, it will learn the little details automatically.................

Colin Colenso said:
Clearly learning by feel works and there may hardly be a pro who has adapted pivot point techniques to a significant level into their game.

That said, I think they've learned the hard way, and that there are certain shots, that they could improve their percentages on using some techniques utilizing a pivot.

But as we know, winning 8, 9 and 10 ball is not often a result of making a 40% shot 60% of the time. Usually when lower percentage pot with position is all that is on offer, the player elects a safety or two way option.

In something like a ring game, or similar offensive game, the big shots become a greater factor.

Colin <- Thinks he's learned to play by feel even when being conscious of setting a precise bridge length. (Though it takes some time).

Colin,
If you recall awhile back I think I asked qualification for a description for a method that I was using, whether it was FHE or BHE. It is very similar to what you are describing now as BHE. Just as the fellow who suggests, " learn to play by feel," I developed this into my game as a young man when I had no instruction and just did it. I had perfect eyes and depth perception and eventually like many quit playing taking up a career.

Later on as an older man I called everything I did into question and I think that is a healthy thing to do in order to understand how one does what they do and put in their games as a solid outpost.

As Ive worked within this area from time to time I have worked on an allowance system for parallel applied English from the basis of no particular pivot point. This led to using the correct pivot point for the shots and applying the same English selections and you are right. Using a pivot point length that corresponds to certain shot has a cancelling effect. What I did to simplify and enable myself to start to learn was adopt a standard pivot point and apply a side tip applied English to my shots learning the necessary allowances for shot that were stroked hard and by distance and I got a lot out of it.

I do not have the link and don't know how to make the video play at a certain point but I saw a Tor Lowery video in which he uses basically a swipe system on his shots from his center ball setup up. This method works great on a 7 ft table because of the decreased distances and can be applied on a larger one. As the distance increases you have to learn to make adjustments and you must know your stroke according to those distances. I have been told by a road player I played for awhile, to trust your stroke not your aim. He was trying to make a point that you have to trust your stroke.

What I have found is bridging at the pivot point for your cue eliminates unintended mistakes as you suggest.

Hopefully this winter I will go into further detail working on some of what you have posted. There are a lot of different ways to do things but there are surely easier ways and if you know what you are doing and how you are doing it that always opens the door up to learn so much more. Nice well thought post!

Colin Colenso · Sep 4, 2015

Patrick Johnson said:
Interesting stuff, Colin. If my pivot point wasn't 20 inches I'd give it a try.

By the way, in the part highlighted in blue did you mean a 1 inch circle?

pj
chgo

I meant 2 inch diameter, 1 inch radius.
[Edit: Silly me, not thinking about the 1.125/2 offset limit... so approximation should be 1 inch diameter, 0.5 inch radius). - Gawd darn circles!]

I'd hazard a guess that your 10mm? light tip end mass cue has a pivot point around 22 inches, based on a little testing I've done with my 8.9mm UK pool cue and my 9.6mm titanium ferrule snooker cue.

Hard to be very accurate with these as I'm tentative to smash the 2.25 inch balls with near max offset with these cues as the tip sometimes chooses to take it's own path.

I'd also guess your squerve point drifts into the 30+ inch range with that cue on slow longer shots.

Colin

WillyCornbread · Sep 4, 2015

I do this kind of instinctively I suppose, when I apply english it's always from a pivot after lining up center ball. I don't really think about pivot points or anything like that, I just make my natural bridge and pivot, so I'm either really lucky or accidentally achieved some 'feel' for this...

My question though is when using BHE, you line up the shot center ball then pivot - but when does this pivot take place in relation to your practice strokes?

Do you stroke center ball then on the final pause/hit come across the ball like the pivot, or do you line up centre ball then all your practice and final strokes are across the ball based on the pivot?

Hope this makes sense, I've been concerned lately that while I'm making balls more frequently with english I may be reinforcing some bad habits.

b

Keith Jawahir · Sep 4, 2015

AZbilliards forums, where the actual world champions are.

Kris_b1104 · Sep 4, 2015

Colin Colenso said:
I also think that pros can benefit from learning how to implement this, even pro snooker players.

Most pros tend to have bridge lengths that aren't too far from their effective pivot points. I think the reason they don't discover this principle is that they are close enough to this throw v squirt cancellation bridge length, and have accurate enough strokes, that their margin for error is of a similar magnitude to their aiming capability via bridge V positioning.
Colin

If you say this gibberish to a pro, he or she would probably start laughing or be really confused and walk away from you. There's a reason they're a pro and we're not, they've gotten to that level by what works for them, all this technical stuff is not necessary.

jburkm002 · Sep 4, 2015

When finding the pivot point, are we still using BHE? If I apply one tip of English, would the back of my cue move one tip or would it vary depending on the pivot point?

Neil · Sep 4, 2015

Kris_b1104 said:
If you say this gibberish to a pro, he or she would probably start laughing or be really confused and walk away from you. There's a reason they're a pro and we're not, they've gotten to that level by what works for them, all this technical stuff is not necessary.

Never ceases to amaze me that some people are so against gaining knowledge to improve themselves. It may not be necessary for a pro, but the rest of us aren't pros, are we? Why bother to break down what works for the pros so we can also learn it? Much better to just bang balls around until we figure it out on our own. Even though less than 1% ever do.

jburkm002 · Sep 4, 2015

My understanding is that the pivot point changes from cue to cue. So if you tried a different cue and couldn't make a ball with side spin. Adjust the pivot point could make a difference. I don't know crap about this stuff. I do know I can not play the same with every cue. So you get a new cue and find it's squirts more or less than your other cue. Do you compensate your aiming point or just change the pivot point? I have a few cues. Some I wont play with because they deflect too much. Now I guess I need to try the pivot point method. However, I like my bridge length and do not feel comfortable making it longer or shorter.

Neil · Sep 4, 2015

jburkm002 said:
When finding the pivot point, are we still using BHE? If I apply one tip of English, would the back of my cue move one tip or would it vary depending on the pivot point?

If you want the tip to move over one tip, how much the back of the cue moves will vary from cue to cue. The pivot point is not exactly half of the cue, so how much the tip and the back of the cue move will not be the same. Yes, it varies on the pivot point distance on how much the back of the cue moves.

Kris_b1104 · Sep 4, 2015

Neil said:
Never ceases to amaze me that some people are so against gaining knowledge to improve themselves. It may not be necessary for a pro, but the rest of us aren't pros, are we? Why bother to break down what works for the pros so we can also learn it? Much better to just bang balls around until we figure it out on our own. Even though less than 1% ever do.

Exactly, that's why I said a pro will laugh at all this gibberish, it's not necessary for them. I was pointing out what he said about a pro could find this helpful, I doubt it. Did you not see my quote? I'm not against gaining knowledge, I'm against gaining unnecessary knowledge.

How to Use Pivot Point Knowlege To Increase Error Margins

AzB Silver Member

Attachments

AzB Silver Member

AzB Silver Member

AzB Silver Member

NON "ACTION KNOCKER"

AzB Silver Member

AzB Silver Member

AzB Silver Member

Fish of the Day

Fish of the Day

Multiverse Operative

AzB Silver Member

Break and One

AzB Silver Member

House Pro in my own home.

AzB Silver Member

AzB Silver Member

AzB Silver Member

AzB Silver Member

House Pro in my own home.