Fundamentals - Main Reason for Euro's Dominance in MC

Ratta

Hearing the balls.....
Silver Member
Tap Tap Tap :)



Really, so when Sky missed that 8 ball that was almost straight in, and most of us knew we'd be out on this 4 ball run ourselves. What happened.

Well, if you watch the shot, he pushes his cue to the right of the cue ball while shooting the 8 ball. Well, what does that do? Sends the cb to the left, correct? And instead of hitting the 8 ball dead on, he now over cuts it, yep, to the left, and the 8 ball hits the top cushion/point of the pocket which is to the right of the pocket.

All because his normal fundamentals failed him at the wrong time, while under pressure. I mean, you can miss, that's fine, but you can't miss because of fundamentals. Hey, you lined it up wrong, or you loaded with English and it just spinned it more than anticipated, whatever, but at this level it should NOT be because of fundamentals. I suspect this is why the Euro's miss a lot less.

I don't mind when I miss, but if it's because of my stroke, then I know it's still not where it should be, as it should be, on every shot; easy/hard, game on the line or first ball in the set. It has to be the same. If you fundamentals fail you under pressure, that's a huge disadvantage against opponents that don't have the same problem, yes?
 

Coop1701

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
All because his normal fundamentals failed him at the wrong time, while under pressure. I mean, you can miss, that's fine, but you can't miss because of fundamentals. Hey, you lined it up wrong, or you loaded with English and it just spinned it more than anticipated, whatever, but at this level it should NOT be because of fundamentals. I suspect this is why the Euro's miss a lot less.

You guys are completely missing my point..., My point is THE ALL have bad fundamentals. Yes, he did move his head. Yes it was a bad stroke. From SVB to Shaw to Soooocrates. I don't know why I call Ralf Soooocrates. Reminds me of Bill and Ted's excellent adventure.

Point fingers, Tap Tap Tap..., whatever you want. I am just saying none of them are the poster children for "Advance Fundamentals in Billiards"
 

Neil

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You guys are completely missing my point..., My point is THE ALL have bad fundamentals. Yes, he did move his head. Yes it was a bad stroke. From SVB to Shaw to Soooocrates. I don't know why I call Ralf Soooocrates. Reminds me of Bill and Ted's excellent adventure.

Point fingers, Tap Tap Tap..., whatever you want. I am just saying none of them are the poster children for "Advance Fundamentals in Billiards"

They all have unorthodox fundamentals. That does not mean that they are bad. As long as one can stroke with repeatabilty and accuracy, being consistent, then that person has good fundamentals for himself.
 

puma122

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Wasn't just the bridge. Watch the top of his head. It starts lifting slightly as he delivers the cue. Worst i've seen this kid play. Pretty bad.

I am a long way from a world beater...but it sure looks like he rushed getting down on that 8 too. We all have our own style, and perhaps that's his, but I like a little more slow\deliberate approach.

Anyway, easy to call these things out from the comfort of our homes...a little different when in the heat of the moment. (And again, I think preshot helps in that heat of the moment...but who knows...)
 

jeffj2h

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The below stats really tell the story. In past years there were a lot of posts on AZB saying "Europe is getting all the rolls". It was a common theme, even though in his first year Mark Wilson refuted that and pointed to statistics such as win rates over 8 years, accu-stats player ratings, lag win percentages, etc, all showing the EU players were playing better.

This year I'm not seeing many comments about the rolls...

US Open 9 ball: SVB 5, Rest of USA 0, Europe 5
World 9 ball: SVB 0, Rest of USA 0, Europe 5
China Open: SVB 0, Rest of USA 0, Europe 4
World Cup of Pool: USA 1 (with SVB), Europe 4
World Pool Masters: SVB 2, Rest of USA 0, Europe 5
Challenge of Champions: SVB 1, Rest of USA 0, Europe 6
 

hang-the-9

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
My son was saying he does not like how Ralph lines up and shoots, his head is tilted, he is up a bit too high and his bridge and stroke is very long. Yet a bunch of players say he has excellent fundamentals. And he does in a lot of areas, but not snooker like.
 

KRJ

Support UKRAINE
Silver Member
My son was saying he does not like how Ralph lines up and shoots, his head is tilted, he is up a bit too high and his bridge and stroke is very long. Yet a bunch of players say he has excellent fundamentals. And he does in a lot of areas, but not snooker like.

As long as the cue is being delivered in a straight line, every time, his fundamentals are fine. Folks got hung up to much on the elbow stuff and other stuff. But my goodness, there needs to some sort of starting point, and that's as good as any.

Some figured it out on their own, good for them. Some never have, bad for them. So, folks read about pendulum stroke and they ONLY hear is this is the ONLY way it has to be. Yet, I don't recall anyone, player, instructor, or anyone ever saying that. It's just what folks hear.

Should kids really be taught, hey, tilt your head, close your right eye and stand on one foot while you shoot?

Just like baseball, Albert Belle had HORRIBLE mechanics, you would NEVER teach anyone how to swing at a baseball like he did. I mean, nobody would. But, they guy could flat out hit, and for power. But, folks forget, the top pro's are there for a reason, they have enough talent to overcome what other folks could NOT. His hands were fast enough to compensate for his erratic movement of moving his hands fowarded during the pitch and then moving them back, and then swinging. No. No. No.

For the rest of the baseball playing community; amateur and professional, they will NOT do this, ever. I'm betting Albert would not teach his own son to do this.
But he did it and made over $100M, so nobody told him to stop, and rightfully so. If it works, so be it. But, if your fundamentals are costing you games, than it's a problem.
 

skip100

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The below stats really tell the story. In past years there were a lot of posts on AZB saying "Europe is getting all the rolls". It was a common theme, even though in his first year Mark Wilson refuted that and pointed to statistics such as win rates over 8 years, accu-stats player ratings, lag win percentages, etc, all showing the EU players were playing better.

This year I'm not seeing many comments about the rolls...
This is pretty clearly a depth problem.

If the US had two or three other players at or near SVB's level - in other words, major tournament winners - they would be competitive. They don't, so they aren't.
 

skateboardkid

Registered
You guys are completely missing my point..., My point is THE ALL have bad fundamentals. Yes, he did move his head. Yes it was a bad stroke. From SVB to Shaw to Soooocrates. I don't know why I call Ralf Soooocrates. Reminds me of Bill and Ted's excellent adventure.

Point fingers, Tap Tap Tap..., whatever you want. I am just saying none of them are the poster children for "Advance Fundamentals in Billiards"

You say Shaw does not have solid bridge or fundamentals? He absolutely has a perfect cue action that goes in a dead straight line. He cues the ball as good as anyone in the world, uses an open bridge (which is preferred on fine cloths) and uses a snooker style stance. Could you be more specific what is wrong (in your opinion) with Shaw's fundamentals?

The kid has made a 140 break in snooker... something no american can say I can tell you that.
 

JolietJames

Boot Party Coordinator
Silver Member
It's weird how many similarities there are between pool and tennis. I believe Europeans take fundamentals more seriously and use drills to make them as solid as possible. Also billiard sports are more popular in Europe than in the US. Hell, Neils was flown to the US multiple times per year to work with Bert and all the drills he puts players through -at the country's expense. He didn't have to pay anything out of pocket.
After the Agassi/Courier/Sampras era, tennis is nearly dead in the US from an international competition standpoint. Only recently have instructors began using special tennis balls and games to build the next generation of players up from a very young age -something Europe and Asia have been doing for twenty years at least.
 

skateboardkid

Registered
As long as the cue is being delivered in a straight line, every time, his fundamentals are fine. Folks got hung up to much on the elbow stuff and other stuff. But my goodness, there needs to some sort of starting point, and that's as good as any.

Some figured it out on their own, good for them. Some never have, bad for them. So, folks read about pendulum stroke and they ONLY hear is this is the ONLY way it has to be. Yet, I don't recall anyone, player, instructor, or anyone ever saying that. It's just what folks hear.

Should kids really be taught, hey, tilt your head, close your right eye and stand on one foot while you shoot?

Just like baseball, Albert Belle had HORRIBLE mechanics, you would NEVER teach anyone how to swing at a baseball like he did. I mean, nobody would. But, they guy could flat out hit, and for power. But, folks forget, the top pro's are there for a reason, they have enough talent to overcome what other folks could NOT. His hands were fast enough to compensate for his erratic movement of moving his hands fowarded during the pitch and then moving them back, and then swinging. No. No. No.

For the rest of the baseball playing community; amateur and professional, they will NOT do this, ever. I'm betting Albert would not teach his own son to do this.
But he did it and made over $100M, so nobody told him to stop, and rightfully so. If it works, so be it. But, if your fundamentals are costing you games, than it's a problem.

There is a massive difference between cue sport fundamentals and any other sport, so it's really not a fair comparison. If there is any un-necessary movement on the shot, you are likely to throw the shot off line. Other sports, there is more room for error when it comes to unnecessary movement.

Neither Efren nor Earl had strokes or alignments you'd teach anyone, but at the end of the day, when they were playing great they did not move *DURING* the shot. Movement after the shot is very different that movement during the shot, so some people might move quickly after the shot is over (not recommended) but if they do not move during the shot, that's the most important part.

Align yourself to the shot the same exact way every time regardless of the shot, pull the cue back and forward in a straight line within that alignment, and do not move any other muscle in your body until the tip has made contact with the cue ball. Stance, elbow position, etc are not often taught to players at a young age, but the ones with "ideal" positions there often do better than those without.

From what I have seen in this competition, the Americans are moving more than the Europeans on shots. Any movement at all will make you miss more and more. I 100% agree that fundamentals are playing a HUGE roll here.
 

JoeyInCali

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues
Silver Member
There is a massive difference between cue sport fundamentals and any other sport, so it's really not a fair comparison. If there is any un-necessary movement on the shot, you are likely to throw the shot off line. Other sports, there is more room for error when it comes to unnecessary movement.

Neither Efren nor Earl had strokes or alignments you'd teach anyone, but at the end of the day, when they were playing great they did not move *DURING* the shot. Movement after the shot is very different that movement during the shot, so some people might move quickly after the shot is over (not recommended) but if they do not move during the shot, that's the most important part.

Align yourself to the shot the same exact way every time regardless of the shot, pull the cue back and forward in a straight line within that alignment, and do not move any other muscle in your body until the tip has made contact with the cue ball. Stance, elbow position, etc are not often taught to players at a young age, but the ones with "ideal" positions there often do better than those without.

From what I have seen in this competition, the Americans are moving more than the Europeans on shots. Any movement at all will make you miss more and more. I 100% agree that fundamentals are playing a HUGE roll here.
Yeah, but what's causing them to move ?
I say it's pressure and they're not handling it well.
 

skateboardkid

Registered
Yeah, but what's causing them to move ?
I say it's pressure and they're not handling it well.

That's not exactly accurate. When your fundamentals are weak, you move more when you are put under extreme pressure. When your fundamentals are strong, you do not move no matter the pressure. That's the whole point - weak fundamentals cause the issue here, not the pressure.
 

skateboardkid

Registered
Watch the 18 year old Kaci. There is a reason he is doing so well in the sport so young - he comes from Snooker and his fundamentals are excellent - he never moves even when the pressure is on. I wish he was an American he'd be a shoe-in for this team. He'd literally beat the socks off anyone on the team (with the exception of Shane).
 

Snooker Theory

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Come on guys... at THIS level. Fundamentals have ZERO to do with it.

This statement should be posted up all round the US Players Practice Area.
It encapsulates precisely and succinctly why the USA will never again win this tournament.
Cue Action to any USA player is when he finds another player who wants to gamble against him. To any other player it refers to how their cue is being delivered on a shot.
A sound Cue Action is the only way for a player to sustain pressure. Balls can be pocketed using all kinds of faults in cue delivery but if you want to maintain consistency when the chips are down then you must have ironclad fundamentals.

Nailed it.
 

KRJ

Support UKRAINE
Silver Member
There is a massive difference between cue sport fundamentals and any other sport, so it's really not a fair comparison. If there is any un-necessary movement on the shot, you are likely to throw the shot off line. Other sports, there is more room for error when it comes to unnecessary movement.

.

Really, pool is so much more special than baseball, tennis, hockey, et al. You know, sports using some type of "stick". There is less than you think. Wrist movement, head movement, et al. Oh, more room for error when hitting a stationary ball, that just sits there, and one being thrown at you at 100mph that spins, dips, and curves.

So, you have any little movement wrong, lift you head, move your eyes, grip the bat too tight to slow your swing, whatever, has terrible effects on making contact. Not to mention, you really can't see the ball the last few feet, you are swinging at where you think the ball is going based on the movements from fraction of a second before.

A 1/4 inch off the barrel of a bat is the difference between a home run and a fly out. Kind of significant, no ?
 

JoeyInCali

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues
Silver Member
That's not exactly accurate. When your fundamentals are weak, you move more when you are put under extreme pressure. When your fundamentals are strong, you do not move no matter the pressure. That's the whole point - weak fundamentals cause the issue here, not the pressure.

That's not true .
PRESSURE makes your muscles behave differently.
Do you think Greg Norman has bad fundamentals ?

I once met a man who lost the US Open b/c he shanked a gimme .
He said, he couldn't believe he missed. And that he would have made that putt a million times in a row.
Sure, but pressure gets to some people.
It's the same in gambling. A lot of lesser players would play a better player who is known to choke . And I've seen this happen and it always amazed me .
We had one player whose nickname was $20. Anything over $20, he choked.
 

Neil

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
As long as the cue is being delivered in a straight line, every time, his fundamentals are fine. Folks got hung up to much on the elbow stuff and other stuff. But my goodness, there needs to some sort of starting point, and that's as good as any.

Some figured it out on their own, good for them. Some never have, bad for them. So, folks read about pendulum stroke and they ONLY hear is this is the ONLY way it has to be. Yet, I don't recall anyone, player, instructor, or anyone ever saying that. It's just what folks hear.

Should kids really be taught, hey, tilt your head, close your right eye and stand on one foot while you shoot?

Just like baseball, Albert Belle had HORRIBLE mechanics, you would NEVER teach anyone how to swing at a baseball like he did. I mean, nobody would. But, they guy could flat out hit, and for power. But, folks forget, the top pro's are there for a reason, they have enough talent to overcome what other folks could NOT. His hands were fast enough to compensate for his erratic movement of moving his hands fowarded during the pitch and then moving them back, and then swinging. No. No. No.

For the rest of the baseball playing community; amateur and professional, they will NOT do this, ever. I'm betting Albert would not teach his own son to do this.
But he did it and made over $100M, so nobody told him to stop, and rightfully so. If it works, so be it. But, if your fundamentals are costing you games, than it's a problem.

Well stated.
 

skateboardkid

Registered
That's not true .
PRESSURE makes your muscles behave differently.
Do you think Greg Norman has bad fundamentals ?

I once met a man who lost the US Open b/c he shanked a gimme .
He said, he couldn't believe he missed. And that he would have made that putt a million times in a row.
Sure, but pressure gets to some people.
It's the same in gambling. A lot of lesser players would play a better player who is known to choke . And I've seen this happen and it always amazed me .
We had one player whose nickname was $20. Anything over $20, he choked.

I disagree. Players with solid fundamentals "Choke" far less than players with poor fundamentals. Those fundamentals may or may not hold up under pressure - but better the fundamentals, the more likely you are to succeed when pressure pumps up your heart rate.
 

Straightpool_99

I see dead balls
Silver Member
I noticed in one of Sky's matches, that he was overcutting his shots with outside english, at least 3 that I can remember. It's as if he's overestimating his shafts deflection. He even said so himself on a shot where he missed the entire ball. Is it possible he's got a new shaft he's not used to?
 
Top