Another Swanne controversy

JoeyA

Efren's Mini-Tourn BACKER
Silver Member
During one of the matches a players takes a cut on the nine ball to win the game. It's a thin cut that is hit fairly slow. The nine ball reaches the jaws of the pocket and then appears to stop there. After a short period of time it falls in. It would hard to say for sure how long it seemed to be motionless before it fell.

Let's say it was close to what I believe is the five second rule.
While the nine ball appeared to be motionless the cue ball is still rolling down to the far end of the table. On an average table it takes a slow moving ball about four or five seconds to travel the length of the table. The nine ball fell just as the cue ball came to rest.

Now the question is when does the clock on the hanging ball start. Does it start when the object ball appears to stop moving or does it start when the cue ball comes to rest?

Did the cue ball hit a rail as it came to rest?

Personally, I believe all balls have to stop rolling before the object ball rest 5 second rule goes into effect and then my opponent must have a calibrated stop watch that has been tested by an approved calibration firm. :D

JoeyA
 

Blue Hog ridr

World Famous Fisherman.
Silver Member
Both ways are interesting. I knew of the 5 second rule while the ball is settling.

Yet, I would have also agreed on the ball being a good shot as long as the cue ball was in motion.

The game or shooters turn isn't over until all balls stop rolling.

Funny that we had that happen more than a few times just last week in League.
 

wayne

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I was the one who ended up winning the game. I wasn't sure on the rule and I almost gave my opponent the game because a well respected pro in the stands said I had to respot the 9 ball. I started to do this and then another well respected top player said no I had won the game. I called the tournament director over and explained the situation and he determined I had won. I was playing a young kid (maybe 16 years old) and he was a little bummed so I offered to replay the game but he said no. Wayne
 

Cory in DC

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
1.7 Balls Settling
A ball may settle slightly after it appears to have stopped, possibly due to slight imperfections in the ball or the table. Unless this causes a ball to fall into a pocket, it is considered a normal hazard of play, and the ball will not be moved back. If a ball falls into a pocket as the result of such settling, it is restored as closely as possible to its original position. If a settling ball falls into a pocket during or just prior to a shot, and this has an effect on the shot, the referee will restore the position and the shot will be replayed. The shooter is not penalized for shooting while a ball is settling. See also 8.3 Ball Pocketed.

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I think the question is more complex. If the 9 ball sat for 5 seconds and then fell, the rule says to put it back where it was. But if it's put back where it is, the CB would hit it when it came back around, which is a win for the shooter. Or if it stays down, then it wouldn't be there for the CB to hit, so there would be a scratch, which is a 99.9999% loss for the shooter (9 ball spots and opponent gets ball in hand).

The rules may be ambiguous, but I think the only approach that makes sense is for the five seconds to start when *all* balls have stopped moving.
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
The way the rule is presently written, the timing of the hanging ball is from when it becomes apparently motionless. One of the players should start counting out loud when this comes up to at least set a baseline.

I think the rule should be changed so that the timing starts from when all of the balls on the table have (apparently) stopped moving or spinning. In particular this avoids the problem of what to do if the nine falls in after 6 seconds and then the cue ball comes back and scratches slowly into that same pocket. Also the referee has other things to worry about while balls are moving.
 
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Neil

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I think the question is more complex. If the 9 ball sat for 5 seconds and then fell, the rule says to put it back where it was. But if it's put back where it is, the CB would hit it when it came back around, which is a win for the shooter. Or if it stays down, then it wouldn't be there for the CB to hit, so there would be a scratch, which is a 99.9999% loss for the shooter (9 ball spots and opponent gets ball in hand).

The rules may be ambiguous, but I think the only approach that makes sense is for the five seconds to start when *all* balls have stopped moving.

But who's to say if the cb would have knocked in the 9 and scratched afterwards, or knocked it in and stayed on the table??

Just look at it as any other ball, and the rule makes sense. No different just because it's the game ball.
 

Hits 'em Hard

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
But who's to say if the cb would have knocked in the 9 and scratched afterwards, or knocked it in and stayed on the table??

Just look at it as any other ball, and the rule makes sense. No different just because it's the game ball.

It's the scenario that breaks the rules. That's why it's brought up. Rules are created to prevent unfair advantages, or disadvantages. Plus, who is to say the 9 ball was actually still? I've seen plenty of times where a ball on the edge of the pocket is slowly in motion, eventually falling into the pocket each time, but taking longer than 5 seconds to fall. So was the ball truly stopped and motionless or slightly moving? Because if it rocked three seconds after it stopped rolling, it resets the count, if that rule truly gets enforced.
 

DogsPlayingPool

"What's in your wallet?"
Silver Member
The way the rule is presently written, the timing of the hanging ball is from when it becomes apparently motionless. One of the players should start counting out loud when this comes up to at least set a baseline.

I think the rule should be changed so that the timing starts from when all of the balls on the table have (apparently) stopped moving or spinning. In particular this avoids the problem of what to do if the nine falls in after 6 seconds and then the cue ball comes back and scratches slowly into that same pocket. Also the referee has other things to worry about while balls are moving.

I agree. The BCAPL got it right with rule 1-49, Balls Settling or Moving:

1-49.3: If a ball is hanging on the lip of a pocket and falls into that pocket by itself after being stationary for five seconds or longer, it will be replaced as closely as possible to the position it was in prior to falling. The five-second count does not begin until all balls in play have stopped moving. Whether the shooter remains at the table does not affect the five-second period
 

dabarbr

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I was the one who ended up winning the game. I wasn't sure on the rule and I almost gave my opponent the game because a well respected pro in the stands said I had to respot the 9 ball. I started to do this and then another well respected top player said no I had won the game. I called the tournament director over and explained the situation and he determined I had won. I was playing a young kid (maybe 16 years old) and he was a little bummed so I offered to replay the game but he said no. Wayne

You big bully
 

sbpoolleague

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I agree. The BCAPL got it right with rule 1-49, Balls Settling or Moving:

1-49.3: If a ball is hanging on the lip of a pocket and falls into that pocket by itself after being stationary for five seconds or longer, it will be replaced as closely as possible to the position it was in prior to falling. The five-second count does not begin until all balls in play have stopped moving. Whether the shooter remains at the table does not affect the five-second period

And THAT is why the BCAPL rules are the absolute best rules in the world, hands down.
 

APA Operator

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
And THAT is why the BCAPL rules are the absolute best rules in the world, hands down.

I fail to see how doing it one way or the other makes one rule better or worse than the other. The rule Neil posted is unambiguous - under that rule, the 'clock' starts the instant the ball becomes stationary. If the cue ball rolls around for ten seconds after the object ball becomes stationary, then the object ball falls in a second later, it was stationary for more than five seconds under that rule and less than five seconds under the BCAPL rule.

IMO, both versions of the rule suffer from the same inadequacy. Because the measurement (when did the ball become stationary, how long was it stationary before falling in, and does the 'clock' stop when it starts moving or when it is off the surface completely) cannot be precise and is almost always an estimation and not a measurement at all, any ruling based on that value in close cases is likely wrong half the time. The rule might as well say "If there is disagreement whether five seconds elapsed, flip a coin." THAT, I believe, would make the rule "right", at least until we have tables/balls that can do that measurement precisely.
 

KissedOut

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
So I guess the question is, does the 5 seconds count from the moment all other balls (including the cue ball) stop moving, or does it count from when the ball gets to the edge of the pocket, appears to be motionless, but then falls in?

Given that the rules seem a little vague, combined with the fact that the OP says it probably was right around the 5 second mark while the cue ball was still moving, I'd be inclined to consider it a legally pocketed ball.

The only reason the actual rule 'seems vague' is that it doesn't agree with the vague notion of the rules most players have. It isn't vague at all that the rule makes no mention of whether the cue ball in moving, or the 'shot' is complete.
 

tucson9ball

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
During one of the matches a players takes a cut on the nine ball to win the game. It's a thin cut that is hit fairly slow. The nine ball reaches the jaws of the pocket and then appears to stop there. After a short period of time it falls in. It would hard to say for sure how long it seemed to be motionless before it fell.

Let's say it was close to what I believe is the five second rule.
While the nine ball appeared to be motionless the cue ball is still rolling down to the far end of the table. On an average table it takes a slow moving ball about four or five seconds to travel the length of the table. The nine ball fell just as the cue ball came to rest.

Now the question is when does the clock on the hanging ball start. Does it start when the object ball appears to stop moving or does it start when the cue ball comes to rest?

Hey Frank,

The table should still be live while any ball is in motion. I would call this a good shot and give the game to the shooter.
 

sbpoolleague

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I fail to see how doing it one way or the other makes one rule better or worse than the other. The rule Neil posted is unambiguous - under that rule, the 'clock' starts the instant the ball becomes stationary. If the cue ball rolls around for ten seconds after the object ball becomes stationary, then the object ball falls in a second later, it was stationary for more than five seconds under that rule and less than five seconds under the BCAPL rule.

IMO, both versions of the rule suffer from the same inadequacy. Because the measurement (when did the ball become stationary, how long was it stationary before falling in, and does the 'clock' stop when it starts moving or when it is off the surface completely) cannot be precise and is almost always an estimation and not a measurement at all, any ruling based on that value in close cases is likely wrong half the time. The rule might as well say "If there is disagreement whether five seconds elapsed, flip a coin." THAT, I believe, would make the rule "right", at least until we have tables/balls that can do that measurement precisely.

The BCAPL rule about this subject is the only written rule that is totally unambiguous and totally correct. If any balls are still moving on the table then they could easily hit stationary balls or contact rails which may jostle the table enough to cause a stationary ball to move.

There is absolutely no doubt that the 5-second time clock should begin after every ball has stopped moving. Just like every other time clock associated with pool starts after all balls have stopped moving. This is such a fundamental truism that I cannot believe any of you are arguing otherwise. But seeing the world that we live in now, I can't say I'm surprised.
 
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