Thoughts on shot clocks?

Bob Jewett

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I've seen you mention this before but I don't think I've seen you talk about exactly how it's implemented. It's different from the typical (e.g., Mosconi Cup) shot clock, which is familiar to most of us. The idea of saving up time when you have an easy shot for the harder shots really does make a lot of sense, but I'm not sure what happens when you run out of time.

How much time per game (8-ball, 9-ball)?
What happens if you run out of time - foul and then the clock resets? So you can only get one time foul per game?
Are there any extensions like in other pool shot clock matches?

For those who have never seen chess clocks in action....

Each player has a count-down clock that runs while it is his turn to play. Each gets some total amount of time for a game (or match) such as 20 minutes for a game of one pocket. When you finish your turn at the table, you go over to the clocks and hit a button that turns off your clock and starts your opponent's clock. If either clock runs out of time the game (or match) is over.

Clocks optionally have a "grace period" at the start of each turn such as 20 or 30 seconds. This takes care of long safety battles as long as the players shoot within the grace period. If you play a real good safe that your opponent has to puzzle over for a few minutes, he loses time on his clock. If you shoot your return safe within 15 seconds and hit the clock, you lose no time at all.

What happens if you run out of time depends on how you set it up. I've used this system at straight pool and the penalty is not loss of game but loss of some number of points depending on how much time the opponent still has on his clock. For example, if you figure 30 seconds per ball, and the opponent has 10 minutes left from his original time, he gets two balls per minute left or 20 points added to his score. Add those and look at the totals to see who won.

Alternatively, you can play that you lose the single game of nine ball or eight ball if you run out of time and each new game starts with reset clocks.

You could also play nine ball or eight ball with a total time for the match and a penalty of so many games per minute left, just like for straight pool. How many minutes each game should take is a good question. I remember local nine ball tournaments that were race to 6 and matches took 45 minutes on average. If each player started with 30 minutes, that should be enough, so I would say a penalty would be applied at one game for each five minutes left.

If a player wants to take three minutes on a really tough shot, that's up to him, but he'll have to play briskly the rest of the match. If a player wants to spend five minutes on a bathroom break, that's fine -- he has to do it on his turn and he's on the clock.
 
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FranCrimi

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For those who have never seen chess clocks in action....

Each player has a count-down clock that runs while it is his turn to play. Each gets some total amount of time for a game (or match) such as 20 minutes for a game of one pocket. When you finish your turn at the table, you go over to the clocks and hit a button that turns off your clock and starts your opponent's clock. If either clock runs out of time the game (or match) is over.

Clocks optionally have a "grace period" at the start of each turn such as 20 or 30 seconds. This takes care of long safety battles as long as the players shoot within the grace period. If you play a real good safe that your opponent has to puzzle over for a few minutes, he loses time on his clock. If you shoot your return safe within 15 seconds and hit the clock, you lose no time at all.

What happens if you run out of time depends on how you set it up. I've used this system at straight pool and the penalty is not loss of game but loss of some number of points depending on how much time the opponent still has on his clock. For example, if you figure 30 seconds per ball, and the opponent has 10 minutes left from his original time, he gets two balls per minute left or 20 points added to his score. Add those and look at the totals to see who won.

Alternatively, you can play that you lose the single game of nine ball or eight ball if you run out of time and each new game starts with reset clocks.

You could also play nine ball or eight ball with a total time for the match and a penalty of so many games per minute left, just like for straight pool. How many minutes each game should take is a good question. I remember local nine ball tournaments that were race to 6 and matches took 45 minutes on average. If each player started with 30 minutes, that should be enough, so I would say a penalty would be applied at one game for each five minutes left.

If a player wants to take three minutes on a really tough shot, that's up to him, but he'll have to play briskly the rest of the match. If a player wants to spend five minutes on a bathroom break, that's fine -- he has to do it on his turn and he's on the clock.

A chess clock would allow a normally fast player to intentionally shark his opponent by taking a lot of unnecessary time during key points in the match when he really doesn't need it, just to slow down the match in an attempt to knock his opponent's timing off.
 

Poolhall60561

AzB Silver Member
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I watched our local APA league over the weekend. It was a slow fest. I'm not sure how a good player can get in a good rhythm waiting for minutes between turns. Some 8 ball games can go over 15 minutes.
 

Bob Jewett

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A chess clock would allow a normally fast player to intentionally shark his opponent by taking a lot of unnecessary time during key points in the match when he really doesn't need it, just to slow down the match in an attempt to knock his opponent's timing off.
I think maybe there is a remote possibility of that but the risk is not nearly as large as the benefit of ending tournaments at a reasonable time.

TDs are still free to penalize unsportsmanlike conduct.
 

FranCrimi

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I think maybe there is a remote possibility of that but the risk is not nearly as large as the benefit of ending tournaments at a reasonable time.

TDs are still free to penalize unsportsmanlike conduct.


In the past, a match was put on the clock after it was determined that it was lagging behind at the half-way time mark. That's fine, but both players shouldn't be penalized if one player is the culprit. That's what they did wrong in the past. It's easy to determine which player is slowing down the match and easy enough to put that player on the clock.

TV matches are different and they can be timed by a referee from the beginning.
 

JeremiahGage

AzB Silver Member
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I'm with Bob on using a chess clock. It makes more sense to have a total amount of time per game instead of per shot.

With that said, there needs to be rules for certain situations such as waiting for the player to shoot on the table next to you and also not hitting the clock until all balls have come to rest.

Having a shot clock of any kind will definitely make the sport more enjoyable to watch and help tournaments run on time.
 

Bob Jewett

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... With that said, there needs to be rules for certain situations such as waiting for the player to shoot on the table next to you and also not hitting the clock until all balls have come to rest. ...
Yes, that's true. For the first, chess clocks have a "pause" position that stops both clocks for things like being obstructed and calling over a ref.
 

KC7MRQ

AzB Silver Member
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Built-in shot clock

I feel each rail should have a built-in display all synced and the cloth wired to a weed burner that turns on as the time expires.

Nothing more entertaining that watching someone get shocked... Especially if money is on the line.
 

fastone371

Certifiable
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I would like to see some form of shot clocks. Nothing worse than watching a guy stand at the table picking up his chalk, chalking cue, setting chalk down, then repeat 10 more times. Had this problem last nite, he had some shots that were 4-5 minutes between shots, this is absolutely unnecessary.
 

KMRUNOUT

AzB Silver Member
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A chess clock would allow a normally fast player to intentionally shark his opponent by taking a lot of unnecessary time during key points in the match when he really doesn't need it, just to slow down the match in an attempt to knock his opponent's timing off.

Why would a normally fast player want to mess with his own rhythm? I don't care in the least how long my opponent takes. They can shoot fast or slow. The only annoying thing is if they thing I have to shoot like they do. I shoot my game. I have no interest in wasting mental energy trying to mess with the other guys game. I have enough to think about just playing my own shots.

I really don't see your hypothetical as either an advantage to the fast player or a disadvantage to the other player.

KMRUNOUT
 

KMRUNOUT

AzB Silver Member
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In the past, a match was put on the clock after it was determined that it was lagging behind at the half-way time mark. That's fine, but both players shouldn't be penalized if one player is the culprit. That's what they did wrong in the past. It's easy to determine which player is slowing down the match and easy enough to put that player on the clock.

TV matches are different and they can be timed by a referee from the beginning.

You should never, EVER put only 1 player on a clock and not the other. Some racks take a long time not because either player played slowly, but because it was a long multi-inning safety battle. If one player is the "culprit", then it means that the other player is playing at a reasonably fast pace. As such, if they both go on the clock, the faster player should not be affected.

In the finals of a pretty big regional tournament, I was playing very slowly, and so was my opponent. It was a big deal for both of us, the biggest final we had been in. The TD was only going to use a clock if a player requested it. Well, after I won the first set and the race was extended, my opponent made a foolish move. He somehow believed that only I was playing slow, and he wasn't. So he requested the clock. Bad move. This improved my play dramatically, and hindered him. He really was taking a ton of time also, but just didn't realize it. Lucky for me, the clock allowed me to cut out the "fear and doubt" phase of my routine, and just shoot the balls.

My experience says that I don't care if there is a clock or not. It also says that I have a reasonably accurate perception of the amount of time both myself and my opponent take. This is very much not true for everyone. In an APA team match, the other team complained that my team was too slow. So I timed every single shot, time out, putting up a player, everything for the entire match. In the end, the other team took WAY more time than we did. Like 30% more time. Just goes to show not everyone has an accurate idea of the time they take.

My opinion is that you should just play your match. If the TD sees a match lagging behind, give a heads up warning to both players. If the pace doesn't improve, put both players on the clock. I see no issue with that, and it seems completely fair to me.

KMRUNOUT
 

pwd72s

recreational banger
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I've only seen one player on streams that is so bad that if he is scheduled for the stream table, I quit watching...
 

KissedOut

AzB Silver Member
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A chess clock would allow a normally fast player to intentionally shark his opponent by taking a lot of unnecessary time during key points in the match when he really doesn't need it, just to slow down the match in an attempt to knock his opponent's timing off.

Doesn't the absence of a clock allow the same thing? IOW, none of the sharking seems to depend on there having been a shot clock at all. In fact, doesn't the shot clock sort of limits the amount of time wasting sharking that can go on? Seems to me that the sharking is possible with or without the clock.
 
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