Dramatic Changes to BCAPL Vegas

That's dramatic!

Steve Lipsky said:

http://www.azbilliards.com/2000storya.php?storynum=7778

Wow. Open teams can't have a single master, let alone grandmaster. Even master scotch doubles teams can't have two grandmasters.

The most bizarre has to got to be the changes to the women's master teams, since as far as I can tell, they basically can't even compete anymore. It appears that the master women are going to have to completely re-shuffle, and there will be way more master women players than teams available, since only one master player can compete on a team. I guess I don't understand the term "Master Team" then... it sort of implies the team belongs in the masters, right? Not just one player?

These are pretty dramatic changes and I'm curious how others perceive them?

- Steve

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Sounds like they're forcing recruitment of new teams by old players. Kind of like the APA.

Sounds like they took my advice. Where is my paycheck or new job title?

Mixed Master Teams (3 person teams / 6 players max on roster)
1 - Only one (1) Grand Master on the roster.
2 - All players on the roster may be from any BCAPL sanctioned league.

So this means that players from across the country can team up as long as they play a league somewhere?

I think it had to be done. I like it......SPF=randyg

Wow...

I am dissappointed with the women's changes for teams, especially with the Advanced/Masters Team only allowing 1 master level player.

I think that the changes for scotch doubles will improve the turn-outs for Master's Scotch, since it appears the advanced players are getting lumped in that category.

I will have to reconsider my trip next year as I had planned to play on a Men's Mixed Team as the master level player. I will now have to see if my team wants to reconfigure without me, since they would be better suited for the Open division.

One last thing...

One last thing I noticed, it still has not been defined how many Advanced players will move to the Master's division each year.

Also, since the top 4 women's Open players move to from the Open to the Master's, skipping Advanced - does that mean that the top 2-4 Advanced level finishers move to Grand Master automatically???

Hi Everyone

Yes it is a big change but much needed to keep pace with the progression of player's abilities and to help open up more opportunities for competitive play. The team restructuring was something that had to take place in order to best incorporate the new BCAPL Advanced individual player designation.

It seems the biggest question I'm reading is about the Women's Advanced / Master team.

Women’s Advanced / Master Teams (4 person teams)
1 - Only one (1) Master or Grand Master on the roster.
2 - Remainder of roster made up of Open and Advanced Players.
3 - The Master or Grand Master may come from any BCAPL sanctioned league in the same state as the team origin.
4 - All Advanced and Open Players on the roster must be from the same league.
5 - There is no original player requirement for the Women’s Advanced Teams.

While there may only be allowed 1 Master level player, there is no limit on the remainder of the team as to the mix of Advanced and Open level players as long as those players all come from the same league. They of course do not have to play on a team together within that league during the league season(s), but just come from the same league.

Many of the Master level women, myself included, have been moved to Advanced. This in essence still will allow several women who are accustomed to forming a team in the Master team level be able to do so. But at the same time it encourages women around the state to feel they too can form possibly an Advanced / Master level team or have the option open to them if they so choose who might not have had that option available to them before.

Our office is still in process of reviewing players for the migration between the levels. We will be complete in that process in about a week or so. At the same time, should anyone on the Master or Advanced list feel they should be reviewed for consideration to be moved to a different division please email Bill Stock, the BCAPL Director of Rules and Referees at bill@playcsipool.com

Also always feel free to contact me with any questions you might have. In reality these changes allow those in the middle player range to feel they can compete more again at nationals. The two changes, the singles criteria and team restructuring should be viewed together to help get the full picture.

All the best,
Holly

P.S. Watchez my dear friend, it was more a case of two great (ok some would heckle both us and you on this statement) but two great minds thinking alike. These changes honestly were in the works much longer than the other thread you are just in synch I think with what made sense. But if you wish to make some extra cash, you can help me paint my house I can't cover expenses however from MO to NV.

Thanks,
Holly

watchez said:

Sounds like they took my advice. Where is my paycheck or new job title?

Mixed Master Teams (3 person teams / 6 players max on roster)
1 - Only one (1) Grand Master on the roster.
2 - All players on the roster may be from any BCAPL sanctioned league.

So this means that players from across the country can team up as long as they play a league somewhere?

Click to expand...

Yes that is what it means

I like it.......

It seems to have a very similar feel as what the VNEA did by adding the intermediate division. One of the toughest jobs for the BCAPL people is going to be making sure all of the people who are in the masters' division really belong there. Such as all of the open players who became masters due to a, say top 48 finish a few years ago. Many of them stopped playing singles because they felt they could not compete with the true master caliber players. Now that there is an advanced division, there should be hundreds of players sending in letters to get considered for lowering their status. I hope that the BCAPL has good, fair, open minded people on their review comittee as that is a tough job.

WOW. I can understand the need for changes and appreciate the BCA making efforts to try new things to curb teams from rearranging themselves and staying in the Open Division.

I too am concerned about the women's master team division. Kiss of Death is just barely qualified this year with One Master & 5 Advanced players. But our other Women's Master Team at Amsterdam is completely disqualified and I can vouch there just aren't enough female players in Amsterdam or NY that compete seriously enough to formulate 6 other teams to host the Angel's 6 Master players. This really dwindles their chances to compete in next year's tournament. That's a big loss to the BCA as their team hosts many of the great female players of NY. And by next year, there's a good chance if my other KOD girls do well, KOD will be ineligible from playing together the following year. NY has one of the largest supply of women players and it seems this new set up may prevent many of us from competing at all in team events.

I would think Texas could see many of the same issues as MANY of them would qualify as Master players. Maybe allowing at least 3 Master Players in the Women's Master Team event may be more helpful.

Secondly, this question is directly for Holly. This year, Tony and I couldn't play together in the Scotch Doubles as we were told Tony was overqualified for the Master event. The new rules for Master Scotch Double Teams seem to indicate a Grand Master can play. Since Tony (and all the pros really) were eligible to play in the Grand Master event of the BCAPL, would Tony and I now be eligible to compete in the Master Scotch Doubles next year?

dogginda9 said:

It seems to have a very similar feel as what the VNEA did by adding the intermediate division. One of the toughest jobs for the BCAPL people is going to be making sure all of the people who are in the masters' division really belong there. Such as all of the open players who became masters due to a, say top 48 finish a few years ago. Many of them stopped playing singles because they felt they could not compete with the true master caliber players. Now that there is an advanced division, there should be hundreds of players sending in letters to get considered for lowering their status. I hope that the BCAPL has good, fair, open minded people on their review comittee as that is a tough job.

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They have already moved many of these people down to Advanced, I think for the last 5 or 6 years. This year only the top 8 went to Master and the 9th-48th all went into Advanced. Top 4 for Women went to Master and others went to advanced.

I love the change and am excited to see many people forming new teams as we all know the Masters Teams division didn't work out too well.

Holly, is the 3 person Masters Team event going to take place AFTER the other team events? Meaning you could play in the Advanced Team event, get knocked out before Friday and then form a 3 person MASTER Team and play?

nm i reread the press release and answered my question

GG11 said:

WOW. I can understand the need for changes and appreciate the BCA making efforts to try new things to curb teams from rearranging themselves and staying in the Open Division.

I too am concerned about the women's master team division. Kiss of Death is just barely qualified this year with One Master, 3 Advanced players and 2 Opens. But our other Women's Master Team at Amsterdam is completely disqualified and I can vouch there just aren't enough female players in Amsterdam or NY that compete seriously enough to formulate 6 other teams to host the Angel's 6 Master players. This really dwindles their chances to compete in next year's tournament. That's a big loss to the BCA as their team hosts many of the great female players of NY. And by next year, there's a good chance if my other KOD girls do well, KOD will be ineligible from playing together the following year. NY has one of the largest supply of women players and it seems this new set up may prevent many of us from competing at all in team events.
I would think Texas could see many of the same issues as MANY of them would qualify as Master players.

Maybe allowing at least 3 Master Players in the Master Team event may be more helpful.

Secondly, this question is directly for Holly. This year, Tony and I couldn't play together in the Scotch Doubles as we were told Tony was overqualified for the Master event. The new rules for Master Scotch Double Teams seem to indicate a Grand Master can play. Since Tony (and all the pros really) were eligible to play in the Grand Master event of the BCAPL, would Tony and I now be eligible to compete in the Master Scotch Doubles next year?

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Seeing that there were only 9 total Women's Master Teams last year, I think if these teams, like the Angel's, were to split up and form their own teams of players (Being the only Master) New York would be sending many strong teams that can compete at the Advanced Level. I don't think this is unlike any other area in the country.

Here in Arizona, we don't have any Masters Teams, we do have a few Masters Ladies, but they don't play together. I could definitely see a couple of them now grab other OPEN or Advanced Players and form a team. Reason being is that they can compete now!

I hope everyone takes this as a positive and makes the most out of it. I'm glad we have 10 months to get geared up.

Holly,

My question is that if the main office of the BCAPL is updating all the divisions for Nationals, is this updated list going to be used to determine all regional divisions also or do the regional tournament directors decide to make there own divisions?


If the regional tournaments do not use the same criteria and keep players in what the main BCAPL hast them in for nationals, then the regional results really cant be used for accurate information on players ability. Also, if an individual is trying to have a local team set up to go to Vegas and Regionals deam players on that team are in a higher division than what nationals say, it creates hard feelings among teams and League operators that I am sure nobody wants.

In my honest opinion, Continuity between all regions of the BCAPL is key. Restructure into 4 divisions is a great opportunity to ensure that each and every player is among his caliber of players, and a great tool to use to verify and track "known ability" for years to come. Without Continuity among all regions there will really be no way to track everyone except once a year, which really doesnt give an accurate "known ability" and will end up causing more issues later on down the road.

Thank You

dogginda9 said "One of the toughest jobs for the BCAPL people is going to be making sure all of the people who are in the masters' division really belong there. Such as all of the open players who became masters due to a, say top 48 finish a few years ago. Many of them stopped playing singles. . ."

That is correct and that is what help prompt us making these changes.


"there should be hundreds of players sending in letters to get considered for lowering their status"


We have gone through the records (and we now have the best in the industry) of past performance. We created the advanced players by moving 'weaker' Masters down, plus adding all open team master and othe adjustments.

Below is the new player Advancement Criteria: Based on how players cash in the BCAPL National 8-Ball Championships. The new policy is retroactive to 2005.

Top 8 (Men's Open Singles) will move to Master
Top 4 (Women's Open Singles) will move to Master
9th - 48th (Men's Open Singles) will move to Advanced
5th - 12th (Women's Open Singles) will move to Advanced
Top 8 (Men's Player Member Singles) will move to Advanced
Top 2 (Women's Player Member Singles) will move to Advanced
Top 6 (Men's Senior Singles) will move to Advanced
Top 3 (Women's Senior Singles) will move to Advanced

Please check our lists to see where yourare located - before contacting our office. http://playbca.com/Leagues/AdvancedandMasterList.aspx

I believe there are close to 1,000 players in the advanced division. We do try to respond to the players concerns, and history has shown that as players moved up to masters, many never returned.

Mark Griffin, CEO
CSI - BCAPL

stuckart said:

Seeing that there were only 9 total Women's Master Teams last year, I think if these teams, like the Angel's, were to split up and form their own teams of players (Being the only Master) New York would be sending many strong teams that can compete at the Advanced Level. I don't think this is unlike any other area in the country.

Here in Arizona, we don't have any Masters Teams, we do have a few Masters Ladies, but they don't play together. I could definitely see a couple of them now grab other OPEN or Advanced Players and form a team. Reason being is that they can compete now!

I hope everyone takes this as a positive and makes the most out of it. I'm glad we have 10 months to get geared up.

Click to expand...

I hope the Master ladies do form other Master Teams and compete.

After rereading the team requirements again, I realized that the Open Team Event only will allow ONE Advanced player. This should help increase the Master Event enrollment so hopefully this change will counteract the loss of the other more heavily stacked Master Teams. I look forward to seeing how it works out for next year and wish it the best!

BTW, will the women still have to work with the 4-player format? Many women I spoke with enjoyed the 5-player rotation much more.

Regional results

We cannot use Regional (or State) results to move a players status. There is alot of difference in winning an event with 38 players - ro an event with 400 players - or 1400 players.

We will pay attention to 'local' results - but the main criteria will be performance in the Nationals.

We would like to think that most Regional & State events will rely on our player placement for their own events.

Hope this helps.

Mark Griffin

Marie's husband said:

Holly,

My question is that if the main office of the BCAPL is updating all the divisions for Nationals, is this updated list going to be used to determine all regional divisions also or do the regional tournament directors decide to make there own divisions?


If the regional tournaments do not use the same criteria and keep players in what the main BCAPL hast them in for nationals, then the regional results really cant be used for accurate information on players ability. Also, if an individual is trying to have a local team set up to go to Vegas and Regionals deam players on that team are in a higher division than what nationals say, it creates hard feelings among teams and League operators that I am sure nobody wants.

In my honest opinion, Continuity between all regions of the BCAPL is key. Restructure into 4 divisions is a great opportunity to ensure that each and every player is among his caliber of players, and a great tool to use to verify and track "known ability" for years to come. Without Continuity among all regions there will really be no way to track everyone except once a year, which really doesnt give an accurate "known ability" and will end up causing more issues later on down the road.

Thank You

Click to expand...

Women Master players

Please try to look at the whole picture.

There are under 300 women masters. Texas only has 23 or so. New York and New Jersey only have aorund 9 total.

So there are not enough players to fill many teams.

An advanced team can have a master on them. They can also have open players on them.

The master/Grand Master player can come from anywhere in the same state as the team origin.

We have really tried to make this work for everyone - and obviously that is not possible. But I think everyone will find this will help keep open teams as open teams and so on.

It is difficult measuring the speed of players - since it is an ever changing situation. And the best measuring tool is past performance.

We do welcome your comments. Address most of your ranking concerns to bill@playcsipool.com.

Mark Griffin, CEO
CSI - BCAPL

GG11 said:

WOW. I can understand the need for changes and appreciate the BCA making efforts to try new things to curb teams from rearranging themselves and staying in the Open Division.

I too am concerned about the women's master team division. Kiss of Death is just barely qualified this year with One Master & 5 Advanced players. But our other Women's Master Team at Amsterdam is completely disqualified and I can vouch there just aren't enough female players in Amsterdam or NY that compete seriously enough to formulate 6 other teams to host the Angel's 6 Master players. This really dwindles their chances to compete in next year's tournament. That's a big loss to the BCA as their team hosts many of the great female players of NY. And by next year, there's a good chance if my other KOD girls do well, KOD will be ineligible from playing together the following year. NY has one of the largest supply of women players and it seems this new set up may prevent many of us from competing at all in team events.

I would think Texas could see many of the same issues as MANY of them would qualify as Master players. Maybe allowing at least 3 Master Players in the Women's Master Team event may be more helpful.

Secondly, this question is directly for Holly. This year, Tony and I couldn't play together in the Scotch Doubles as we were told Tony was overqualified for the Master event. The new rules for Master Scotch Double Teams seem to indicate a Grand Master can play. Since Tony (and all the pros really) were eligible to play in the Grand Master event of the BCAPL, would Tony and I now be eligible to compete in the Master Scotch Doubles next year?

Click to expand...

Hi GG,

Hope all is well. Saw you and Tony were hosting exhibitions in the Mid-West and the feedback was very positive.

Addressing your questions: first about the women's master teams
yes only one master per team going forward but as Mark G mentioned in another post in this thread there are 1000 advanced players currently listed and with the new division advancement criteria, there should be hundreds of players that send emails requesting a review to see if they should truly be on the master list or instead be moved to the advanced list.

I encourage anyone who believe they might be eligible to be moved to the advanced from master division to send their requestion to my CSI colleague Bill Stock at bill@playcsipool.com

I suspect over the next 9 or so months the master and advanced list will change considerably based on the review results.

About the master scotch...below is the new criteria. As long as you and Tony meet the requirements, you will be eligible to play together.

Master Scotch Doubles (One Male and One Female)
1 - Only one (1) Grand Master on a Master Scotch Doubles Team
2 - Grand Master must be a league qualified player
3 - Two league players must come from the same state
4 - A Player Member may play with a league qualified Open, Advanced or Master player from the same state (Player Members may not play with a Grand Master)

Thanks and talk with you soon, feel free to contact me either at the office (702) 719-7665, via my cell (text or call at 602-312-8155) or email holly@playcsipool.com

All the best,
Holly