Pool teaching philosophy

BasementDweller · Jul 7, 2014

Great thread.

I've come to many of the same conclusions as the original poster but I haven't been able to come up with the right words (or thread) to properly express these thoughts.

So let me try now. I'm just going to jump right in to controversial waters:

I bought the book that everyone has been recommending on here -- Mark Wilson's Play Great Pool and while it is a very well put together book and a great addition to anyone's pool library, I found some of the conclusions that Mark came to -- to be a bit puzzling.

The main thing that puzzled me was how he sort of just dismissed the "open" snooker style stance for pool but later on in the book he cites Steve Davis and Allison Fisher as examples of great players who apparently succeeded in spite of their open stances and not because of them.

My second criticism of this book is Mark spends a whopping 2 pages on the grip. That's out of 234 pages. This book is supposed to be the "Definitive Textbook for Teaching Yourself the Sport of Pocket Billiards" but yet Mark only spends a couple of pages on the subject and doesn't really dive too deeply into the different ways a player can grip the cue. I have personally found much better information on the grip right here on this very forum from both Fran Crimi and SFleinen. Unfortunately, I can't quite find the posts I'm thinking of at the moment.

I guess for me it looks like the vast majority of the successful instructors in the U.S. are coming from the Jerry Briesath tree. My impression of these instructors is that your stance doesn't matter a whole lot -- it just has to be comfortable. Your head position can be high or low. Your grip doesn't matter much -- just keep it light. The follow through doesn't matter of course because the cue ball is long gone nanoseconds after contact. The stroke is where it's at for these guys (and gals). A nice repeatable stroke is the goal. It just appears to me that they often times begin with this end result in mind, as they should, but they don't give proper credit to the importance of many of the fundamental items listed above. The overall impression I get is that if you just focus on not dropping your elbow and finish your stroke, all the other items will take care of themselves (stance, grip, head position, etc.).

The more rigid (if that's the right word) type of instructors don't focus so much on the repeatability of the stroke right off the bat, although that's still the ultimate goal. What these types of instructors do is put your body in an uncomfortable position and through the stance and grip you force yourself to stroke straight. Not the other way around.

These two methods seem to be diametrically opposed.

The only thing I'm really convicted off anymore is that at the top level pool tables will continue to get tougher (i.e. tighter pockets and/or bigger tables) and pool players will evolve to look more like their snooker cousins -- not less.

Well I take that back -- maybe it doesn't even matter. Maybe, just maybe -- all roads lead to Rome when it comes to shooting styles for pool. I honestly don't know anymore. In the pool world, it all just seems so arbitrary. It's like a few guys got together in a room one day and said this is what we are going to teach and come hell or high water we will not deviate! It's when you really start to analyze these different techniques that things start to get more confusing -- not less.

The snooker world doesn't appear to be so confusing. I wonder why that is?

StraightPoolIU · Jul 7, 2014

A couple things. 2 pages regarding grip seems a lot to me. Most pool books devote a paragraph or a couple of sentences. Also, I would disagree with your conclusion that with Mark's method your stance, head position, and grip don't matter. As I read the book I drew quite the opposite conclusion. It seemed to me he was staying that getting a stable stance with the proper balance and clearance was maybe the most important factor. He also goes into more detail than any other pool book I've ever seen on other fundamentals. If it's not for you then that's fine as it may not be for everyone, but I don't think the criticism of it being vague in the fundamentals it advocates is accurate.

JoeW · Jul 7, 2014

Straightpool-99 wrote, “What are your thoughts on this? Should you try to emulate the pros from the beginning or learn an entirely different style and then change? “

I have a few thoughts on the matter. First off who is a teacher? I have addressed that in a short essay (that won a prize by the way

), see

http://billiards.colostate.edu/PBReview/Who_Is_A_Teacher.htm

Whether you are learning to ride a motorcycle or learning to play pool a “teacher” is the better person to learn from. Here is why. Teachers are concerned with you and your development. Pros are concerned with their own development (as they should be).

The fundamentals of pool playing are fairly straight forward. They can be learned from a book or a teacher who has written down their thoughts on the matter. While there are differences among teachers with regard to what they teach and why they teach it, the student is responsible for finding a good teacher. I have not sought out the similarities and the differences among teachers but would suspect from what I have read over the last 25 years that there are more similarities than differences among the better teachers.

Of most importance is learning from one who has thoroughly studied all of the best fundamentals for pool playing. You need a teacher who can take into consideration your strengths and limitations so the various ways to accomplish a goal can be fitted to your physique and your style of play. A good teacher is acutely aware of your unique needs. Undoubtedly, some pros are good teachers but that is another matter (see referenced url above).

Once the fundamentals, as applied to you, have been learned the student then adjusts what they have learned and new techniques they learn from Pros or others to fit their game. There are many ways to accomplish a goal when playing pool . It is doubtful that there is a single best way. There are only the ways that are best for you and therefore you need someone who specializes in teaching students based on student needs.

Far too many people seek an immediate solution to a problem and do not stop to consider that each new idea presented needs to be thoroughly tested by each person who desires to use it. A technique may work for some Pro but not for you and it is your responsibility to determine how useful an idea is in your game. The assistance of a coach or a teacher is of immeasurable use in these type of endeavors because the teacher / coach is focused on you.

BasementDweller · Jul 7, 2014

StraightPoolIU said:
A couple things. 2 pages regarding grip seems a lot to me. Most pool books devote a paragraph or a couple of sentences. Also, I would disagree with your conclusion that with Mark's method your stance, head position, and grip don't matter. As I read the book I drew quite the opposite conclusion. It seemed to me he was staying that getting a stable stance with the proper balance and clearance was maybe the most important factor. He also goes into more detail than any other pool book I've ever seen on other fundamentals. If it's not for you then that's fine as it may not be for everyone, but I don't think the criticism of it being vague in the fundamentals it advocates is accurate.

That's fair. I failed at being clear.

I kind of lumped Mark in with the other instructors on this forum that come from the same Briesath camp and what they have said in the past. Mark does go into detail on his "orthodox" stance and what exactly that is, and he does a good job of that in the book. My criticism of this orthodox stance is how he sort of dismisses the "open" stance in the process of explaining his, but at the same time uses snooker players as examples of great players in his book. For me, upon close analysis of the "orthodox" stance it just seems a bit arbitrary.

When you compare the stance of Mark on the front cover of his book and that of a player like Gareth Potts -- I personally prefer the later.

Straightpool_99 · Jul 7, 2014

...............

BasementDweller · Jul 7, 2014

Straightpool_99,

I switched over to a snooker stance quite a few years back after watching Karen Corr play and combining that with seeing all of Allison Fisher's victories. I figured the snooker gals are dominating at pool why not try it. It didn't dawn on me at the time but your post just finally brought to light something that it obvious but I didn't think about it all these years.

Here it is -- women are shorter. I've improved since switching over to this stance but who knows maybe I would have improved with a more tradional pool stance. One thing though is that I'm right at 6 feet tall and trying to use a 100% snooker stance is just about impossible for me. If I was 5'5" it would be easy. I incorporate the open stance but can't get the cue on my chest. I still fill like a more open stance gets me on the shot line better than a more tradional pool one does.

In other news....

I'm with you on the "fewest moving parts" philosophy. It sounds good at first but on further inspection you discover that many things in this world of ours operate more effeciently with MORE moving parts not less.

336Robin · Jul 7, 2014

BasementDweller said:
Great thread.

I've come to many of the same conclusions as the original poster but I haven't been able to come up with the right words (or thread) to properly express these thoughts.

So let me try now. I'm just going to jump right in to controversial waters:

I bought the book that everyone has been recommending on here -- Mark Wilson's Play Great Pool and while it is a very well put together book and a great addition to anyone's pool library, I found some of the conclusions that Mark came to -- to be a bit puzzling.

The main thing that puzzled me was how he sort of just dismissed the "open" snooker style stance for pool but later on in the book he cites Steve Davis and Allison Fisher as examples of great players who apparently succeeded in spite of their open stances and not because of them.

My second criticism of this book is Mark spends a whopping 2 pages on the grip. That's out of 234 pages. This book is supposed to be the "Definitive Textbook for Teaching Yourself the Sport of Pocket Billiards" but yet Mark only spends a couple of pages on the subject and doesn't really dive too deeply into the different ways a player can grip the cue. I have personally found much better information on the grip right here on this very forum from both Fran Crimi and SFleinen. Unfortunately, I can't quite find the posts I'm thinking of at the moment.

I guess for me it looks like the vast majority of the successful instructors in the U.S. are coming from the Jerry Briesath tree. My impression of these instructors is that your stance doesn't matter a whole lot -- it just has to be comfortable. Your head position can be high or low. Your grip doesn't matter much -- just keep it light. The follow through doesn't matter of course because the cue ball is long gone nanoseconds after contact. The stroke is where it's at for these guys (and gals). A nice repeatable stroke is the goal. It just appears to me that they often times begin with this end result in mind, as they should, but they don't give proper credit to the importance of many of the fundamental items listed above. The overall impression I get is that if you just focus on not dropping your elbow and finish your stroke, all the other items will take care of themselves (stance, grip, head position, etc.).

The more rigid (if that's the right word) type of instructors don't focus so much on the repeatability of the stroke right off the bat, although that's still the ultimate goal. What these types of instructors do is put your body in an uncomfortable position and through the stance and grip you force yourself to stroke straight. Not the other way around.

These two methods seem to be diametrically opposed.

The only thing I'm really convicted off anymore is that at the top level pool tables will continue to get tougher (i.e. tighter pockets and/or bigger tables) and pool players will evolve to look more like their snooker cousins -- not less.

Well I take that back -- maybe it doesn't even matter. Maybe, just maybe -- all roads lead to Rome when it comes to shooting styles for pool. I honestly don't know anymore. In the pool world, it all just seems so arbitrary. It's like a few guys got together in a room one day and said this is what we are going to teach and come hell or high water we will not deviate! It's when you really start to analyze these different techniques that things start to get more confusing -- not less.

The snooker world doesn't appear to be so confusing. I wonder why that is?

There would be no point of me going off on tangents about the level of complication given pool here in the states and why that might be. I think a great deal of it revolves around needing something to talk about and were there more pool rooms there would more playing and less talking Im sure.

You are in Europe how is the popularity of snooker, pool/billiard games there versus here in the states?

BasementDweller · Jul 7, 2014

336Robin said:
There would be no point of me going off on tangents about the level of complication given pool here in the states and why that might be. I think a great deal of it revolves around needing something to talk about and were there more pool rooms there would more playing and less talking Im sure.

You are in Europe how is the popularity of snooker, pool/billiard games there versus here in the states?

You have me confused with Straightpool_99. He's the one in Europe. Maybe he'll answer your question.

Or maybe we can move on to another question. Are there any principles that all pool instructors/teachers/coaches agree on? For a while I thought staying still throughout the entire stroke was one such thing, but later on I read on here that it wasn't really that important as long as you aren't moving until after the cue ball is contacted.

So many competing thoughts and so little time. What's a boy to do?

JB Cases · Jul 7, 2014

If pool was more results oriented, i.e. if we grew up as players being FORCED to show aptitude in measureable amounts then the techniques taught and used would quickly coalesce around best practices that are SHOWN to be effective.

Imagine that instead of sandbagging to stay in lower classes you were instead PREVENTED from competing in higher classes until you proved that you could beat the ghost at various race lengths?

IOW no one who can't beat the 9 ball ghost in a race to 11 is not allowed to play in professional events. No one who is not able to beat the ghost to 7 is not allowed to play in regional events. etc...

And the prize money is HIGHER at the higher levels. Of course the broader amount of players would be at the lower levels so what do you do? You TAKE money from the broad base and funnel it into the higher levels to give incentive for people to move up in class. Flip the whole thing and then watch people figure out really quickly what works and what doesn't and who is teaching what works and who isn't.

But right now there is nothing in the way of standards or measurements that is accepted everywhere. There are tests of course which could be a foundational model but until they become the standard that every beginner through pro uses to test personal aptitude we will be stuck where we are.

Of course those tests don't factor in competitive experience but that would be left as the intangible that separates competitors. The test only determines a player's qualification to even be allowed to compete. It's a goal to attain to show mastery before being allowed to test yourself against the next skill class in formal competition.

AtLarge · Jul 7, 2014

BasementDweller said:
... One thing though is that I'm right at 6 feet tall and trying to use a 100% snooker stance is just about impossible for me. If I was 5'5" it would be easy. I incorporate the open stance but can't get the cue on my chest. I still fill like a more open stance gets me on the shot line better than a more tradional pool one does. ...

Have you tried widening your stance to get down lower?

JB Cases · Jul 7, 2014

JoeW said:
Straightpool-99 wrote, “What are your thoughts on this? Should you try to emulate the pros from the beginning or learn an entirely different style and then change? “

I have a few thoughts on the matter. First off who is a teacher? I have addressed that in a short essay (that won a prize by the way), see

http://billiards.colostate.edu/PBReview/Who_Is_A_Teacher.htm

Whether you are learning to ride a motorcycle or learning to play pool a “teacher” is the better person to learn from. Here is why. Teachers are concerned with you and your development. Pros are concerned with their own development (as they should be).

The fundamentals of pool playing are fairly straight forward. They can be learned from a book or a teacher who has written down their thoughts on the matter. While there are differences among teachers with regard to what they teach and why they teach it, the student is responsible for finding a good teacher. I have not sought out the similarities and the differences among teachers but would suspect from what I have read over the last 25 years that there are more similarities than differences among the better teachers.

Of most importance is learning from one who has thoroughly studied all of the best fundamentals for pool playing. You need a teacher who can take into consideration your strengths and limitations so the various ways to accomplish a goal can be fitted to your physique and your style of play. A good teacher is acutely aware of your unique needs. Undoubtedly, some pros are good teachers but that is another matter (see referenced url above).

Once the fundamentals, as applied to you, have been learned the student then adjusts what they have learned and new techniques they learn from Pros or others to fit their game. There are many ways to accomplish a goal when playing pool . It is doubtful that there is a single best way. There are only the ways that are best for you and therefore you need someone who specializes in teaching students based on student needs.

Far too many people seek an immediate solution to a problem and do not stop to consider that each new idea presented needs to be thoroughly tested by each person who desires to use it. A technique may work for some Pro but not for you and it is your responsibility to determine how useful an idea is in your game. The assistance of a coach or a teacher is of immeasurable use in these type of endeavors because the teacher / coach is focused on you.

I also agree with this. In just about every endeavor those who are the best instructors, coaches, mentors, etc...is often well known and serious students seek them out. In some cases the teacher will seek out a student that they wish to teach because of something they see in that person that is attractive.

Look at it in more of a parallel with nature...anytime you have an ecosystem the organisms will grow unchecked as long as nothing prevents them. So in a loose environment with little in the way of measurable standards "teachers" will sprout with conflicting viewpoints on how to approach the game.

So in such an environment students are forced to pretty much try out lots of instructors and techniques to find the ones that resonate best with their desire level.

IF pool had a structure more like Snooker then pool would also have a higher class of professional instructor as Snooker does. Also pool would have real, full time coaches that sign on with players to handle their development in a continuous way with full support in return for a percentage of winnings.

That's how it is in China for example for a lot of the players. And....it works.

CJ Wiley · Jul 7, 2014

people in the "pool world" that are respectful, courteous,and have positive attitudes

Golf in many ways is actually worse than pool. Hank has his share of haters too, it's not just professional pool players on az that are resented. As a matter of fact I know golfers that go to pool tournaments that swear that pool players shark less than golfers .....and the players are easier to get along with too....specifically when dealing with golf/pool calcutta's.

Some people are going to be bitter, angry and resentful no matter what game they choose to play.....thinking it's "just pool people" is silly and unrealistic. I know a lot of people in the "pool world" that are respectful, courteous, and have positive attitudes.

Go figure, who would have thought? 'The Game is the Teacher'

ChicagoRJ said:
So, Mr. Haney never played professional golf, yet became an expert golf instructor. :thumbup: We knew some pro pool players would understand the concept !!

Too bad pool does not have the same attitude as golf.... too bad pool does not have the mass appeal of golf, if it did, nobody would even be talking about who can teach and who can not, they'd all be too busy counting their money to even care

TCo · Jul 7, 2014

Learning styles

There are three cognitive learning styles:

Visual (DVD),
Auditory (lecture style),
Kinesthetic (doing).

This is cognative learning part is like learning pattern play, more understanding of the game. After the cognative portion, you have a motor skill to develop.

Fact is if you only use only 1 single learning style, you're probably not learning as fast as you could - too many pieces missing.

So, watching a pro is part of learning. Having a teacher is part of learning and hitting balls is part of learning.

KRJ · Jul 7, 2014

CJ Wiley said:
Golf in many ways is actually worse than pool. Hank has his share of haters too, it's not just professional pool players on az that are resented. As a matter of fact I know golfers that go to pool tournaments that swear that pool players shark less than golfers .....and the players are easier to get along with too....specifically when dealing with golf/pool calcutta's.

Some people are going to be bitter, angry and resentful no matter what game they choose to play.....thinking it's "just pool people" is silly and unrealistic. I know a lot of people in the "pool world" that are respectful, courteous, and have positive attitudes.

Go figure, who would have thought? 'The Game is the Teacher'

I think you missed my point completely CJ. I was only referring to golf instructors, most of which were never professional golfers. Just like in ALL sports, some are pro's and some are not. Some pro's can teach, and some can't. Some non pro's can teach and some cannot. That's it the only point I was making

bdorman · Jul 7, 2014

Angleo Dundee, the greatest boxing coach ever, never wore a boxing glove in his life.

But he was a great observer (saw his boxer's -- and his opponents' -- strengths and weaknesses) and knew how to teach the boxer to win.

Dr. Ben Spock taught millions of women how to have and raise a baby, although I don't think he'd ever given birth.

Ad nauseum....

Pidge · Jul 7, 2014

BasementDweller said:
Straightpool_99,

I switched over to a snooker stance quite a few years back after watching Karen Corr play and combining that with seeing all of Allison Fisher's victories. I figured the snooker gals are dominating at pool why not try it. It didn't dawn on me at the time but your post just finally brought to light something that it obvious but I didn't think about it all these years.

Here it is -- women are shorter. I've improved since switching over to this stance but who knows maybe I would have improved with a more tradional pool stance. One thing though is that I'm right at 6 feet tall and trying to use a 100% snooker stance is just about impossible for me. If I was 5'5" it would be easy. I incorporate the open stance but can't get the cue on my chest. I still fill like a more open stance gets me on the shot line better than a more tradional pool one does.

In other news....

I'm with you on the "fewest moving parts" philosophy. It sounds good at first but on further inspection you discover that many things in this world of ours operate more effeciently with MORE moving parts not less.

With regards to the height and snooker stance - I'm 6'4 and have no issues incorporating a full square stance. Can I ask what issues you have when trying to incorporate it fully? I believe you referenced Gareth Potts previously. Gaz plays with a rather wide stance, perhaps a slight adjustment in to width of your feet will enable you to get down all the way. Do you step onto the shot line or not? If you don't this shouldn't effect anything, and you should be able to just position your locked leg outside the shot line a little and then move the cocked leg out a little further than normal to widen it. If you step into the line of the shot it takes a little more practice to be able to repeat stepping in outside the shot line. But again, its the same as not stepping in, all you have to do is make the step in repeatable and on the same position to the line of a shot.

Watch Gaz playing UK 8 Ball, his left locked leg is quite far outside the shot line. And he manages to get right down and play pretty decent.

FranCrimi · Jul 7, 2014

Pidge said:
With regards to the height and snooker stance - I'm 6'4 and have no issues incorporating a full square stance. Can I ask what issues you have when trying to incorporate it fully? I believe you referenced Gareth Potts previously. Gaz plays with a rather wide stance, perhaps a slight adjustment in to width of your feet will enable you to get down all the way. Do you step onto the shot line or not? If you don't this shouldn't effect anything, and you should be able to just position your locked leg outside the shot line a little and then move the cocked leg out a little further than normal to widen it. If you step into the line of the shot it takes a little more practice to be able to repeat stepping in outside the shot line. But again, its the same as not stepping in, all you have to do is make the step in repeatable and on the same position to the line of a shot.

Watch Gaz playing UK 8 Ball, his left locked leg is quite far outside the shot line. And he manages to get right down and play pretty decent.

I just watched some videos of Gareth Potts and he seems to have a severely cross dominant eye. His stance accommodates that cross dominant cue placement.

CJ Wiley · Jul 7, 2014

if anyone knew what I know about pool they would play as well as me.

This is true, however, there's physical reasons that golfers, and tennis player/coaches couldn't compete.

In pool, there's no reason someone can't play at a top level if they have the knowledge. There really isn't anything in pool that requires physical dominance.....I believe if anyone knew what I know about pool they would play as well as me (if they were truly willing).

ChicagoRJ said:
I think you missed my point completely CJ. I was only referring to golf instructors, most of which were never professional golfers. Just like in ALL sports, some are pro's and some are not. Some pro's can teach, and some can't. Some non pro's can teach and some cannot. That's it the only point I was making

336Robin · Jul 7, 2014

CJ Wiley said:
This is true, however, there's physical reasons that golfers, and tennis player/coaches couldn't compete.

In pool, there's no reason someone can't play at a top level if they have the knowledge. There really isn't anything in pool that requires physical dominance.....I believe if anyone knew what I know about pool they would play as well as me (if they were truly willing).

I fully believe that and its one of the reasons I think that seniors are a great audience for becoming regular pool players. They have the time, the money and they have what it takes physically, what not to love about having a bunch of guys who are your regulars?

one stroke · Jul 7, 2014

CJ Wiley said:
This is true, however, there's physical reasons that golfers, and tennis player/coaches couldn't compete.

In pool, there's no reason someone can't play at a top level if they have the knowledge. There really isn't anything in pool that requires physical dominance.....I believe if anyone knew what I know about pool they would play as well as me (if they were truly willing).

Can go with you on this one ,, Although I would agree you don't have to be a world class athlete there is some physical ability and eye hand skill involved in a repeatable stroke

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