Hugging the rail vs. deflecting off

skip100

skip100

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
We've all played on tables where if you get the ball traveling down the rail it tends to hug the cushion and pocket nicely. Then there are those nasty (or perhaps less negatively, tougher) tables where the moment the ball glances against a rail it seems to deflect off at an increased angle.

What factors contribute to this? Cushion types/brands? Cushion material? Age?
 
MattPoland

MattPoland

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I personally think this is almost all aim. Normal shots have a wide tolerance for cheating the pocket where rail shots have much less. I’ve gotten better at these lately and have been able to hug the rail no problem. I know many players fear getting past the point of the side pocket. That can stick out some on bad tables. But I’m betting that’s more commonly the player’s excuse when actually they accidentally cheated the angle and paid for doing so. I bet in most of those scenarios you can spot the shot back up and a better player can prove those rails are just fine.
 
Patrick Johnson

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
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MattPoland said:
Normal shots have a wide tolerance for cheating the pocket where rail shots have much less.
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Something that's often overlooked about this:

Because of the ability to hit the rail and still go in, the "effective" corner pocket size looking down the rail is almost as big as shooting at it from the spot (a 5" corner pocket is 4.8" looking down the rail, counting this added "mirror" width).

From the spot gives the most cheating room, but down the rail is one of the best alternatives.

pj
chgo
 
MattPoland

MattPoland

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Patrick Johnson said:
Something that's often overlooked about this:



Because of the ability to hit the rail and still go in, the "effective" corner pocket size looking down the rail is almost as big as shooting at it from the spot (a 5" corner pocket is 4.8" looking down the rail, counting this added "mirror" width).



From the spot gives the most cheating room, but down the rail is one of the best alternatives.



pj

chgo
Click to expand...



Are you saying that’s true of an object ball frozen on the rail?
 
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realkingcobra

realkingcobra

Well-known member
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skip100 said:
We've all played on tables where if you get the ball traveling down the rail it tends to hug the cushion and pocket nicely. Then there are those nasty (or perhaps less negatively, tougher) tables where the moment the ball glances against a rail it seems to deflect off at an increased angle.

What factors contribute to this? Cushion types/brands? Cushion material? Age?
Click to expand...

Before Simonis types of cloth took over the market, pool was played on woven wool cloths, and they had a tendency to form ditches along the nose of the rails, and if you cut a ball along the nose of the cushion the object ball would actually travel down the length of the rails staying in that ditch, and even to the point of wobbling back and forth during its roll to the pocket, as long as it stayed in the ditch, it was going in the pocket.
 
Patrick Johnson

Patrick Johnson

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realkingcobra said:
Before Simonis types of cloth took over the market, pool was played on woven wool cloths, and they had a tendency to form ditches along the nose of the rails, and if you cut a ball along the nose of the cushion the object ball would actually travel down the length of the rails staying in that ditch, and even to the point of wobbling back and forth during its roll to the pocket, as long as it stayed in the ditch, it was going in the pocket.
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This is still true to a smaller degree - "gutters" form when OBs are forced downward by the cushion nose "overhang". With the new thinner cloth the "ditch" probably isn't as deep, but it's still there.

However, the gutters in both cases form closer to the rail than the bottom of a ball frozen to the rail - maybe 1/4" closer to the rail? - because balls compress the rail as they're forced downward. So I wonder how a ball rolling along the rail can be "in the ditch"...?

Not disagreeing, just wondering about the details.

pj <- it's what I do
chgo
 
realkingcobra

realkingcobra

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Patrick Johnson said:
This is still true to a smaller degree - "gutters" form when OBs are forced downward by the cushion nose "overhang". With the new thinner cloth the "ditch" probably isn't as deep, but it's still there.

However, the gutters in both cases form closer to the rail than the bottom of a ball frozen to the rail - maybe 1/4" closer to the rail? - because balls compress the rail as they're forced downward. So I wonder how a ball rolling along the rail can be "in the ditch"...?

Not disagreeing, just wondering about the details.

pj <- it's what I do
chgo
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Because the ditch is about 1/2" wide, and the worsted woolen cloths are much more tightly weaved which means the balls can't compress it nearly as much as a woven cloth will compress. It's almost impossible to feel the ditch on Simonis cloth, but on Steven's, Warren, Mali, once the cloth had reached about half life, the Dutch was easy to feel rubbing your fingers over it, and no, it wasn't way under the nose of the cushions, you could literally roll a ball by hand against the nose of the cushions down the side rails into any corner pocket.
 
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hang-the-9

hang-the-9

AzB Silver Member
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skip100 said:
We've all played on tables where if you get the ball traveling down the rail it tends to hug the cushion and pocket nicely. Then there are those nasty (or perhaps less negatively, tougher) tables where the moment the ball glances against a rail it seems to deflect off at an increased angle.

What factors contribute to this? Cushion types/brands? Cushion material? Age?
Click to expand...

Don't think it's the cushion type but the worn in grove along the bed next to the rails and how even they are and how well the cloth is on the rail. Also the spin on the ball would affect this.
 
dbgordie

dbgordie

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Put some spin on it.

hang-the-9 said:
Don't think it's the cushion type but the worn in grove along the bed next to the rails and how even they are and how well the cloth is on the rail. Also the spin on the ball would affect this.
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My cloth is new so there isn't a groove yet. I find that if I'm shooting down the rail on my right, if I put a small amount of right hand English(spin), it will hug the rail better than not putting English on it. Same thing on the left, but with left English(spin). If I don't put the English(spin) on these shots, the odds of it rattling in the pocket go up.

Just a disclaimer, I've only been playing a couple years so if a term I use is wrong I'm sorry. I am only trying to describe what works for me and how I perceive it.
 
MattPoland

MattPoland

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Patrick Johnson said:
I'm guessing that depends on the OB's distance from the pocket. Can you point to where it says that?



pj

chgo
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I take the large drop in effective pocket size shortly after 43 degrees to represent the object ball getting closer to and then freezing on the rail.

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skip100

skip100

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
realkingcobra said:
Before Simonis types of cloth took over the market, pool was played on woven wool cloths, and they had a tendency to form ditches along the nose of the rails, and if you cut a ball along the nose of the cushion the object ball would actually travel down the length of the rails staying in that ditch, and even to the point of wobbling back and forth during its roll to the pocket, as long as it stayed in the ditch, it was going in the pocket.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I've seen that on some bar tables.

I'm mostly wondering about the bounce off the rail. We've all seen Mosconi Cup and other tournament shots on brand new cloth that spurt the ball almost directly down the rail toward the pocket, while in most pool halls the same ball would come close to hitting the first diamond.

Presumably newer cloth and newer cushions would tend to result in more hug down the rail but I'm not sure about that.
 
MattPoland

MattPoland

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I remember a European player (Mark Gray) hit a ball higher up the rail than expected and it still went in at the 2016 Mosconi Cup. I remember Rasson did an entire post about how the pockets are just as tight as a Diamond but the shelf wasn’t as deep because it was closer to the old Brunswick’s. So that’s a factor.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=442484
 
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Patrick Johnson

Patrick Johnson

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MattPoland said:
I take the large drop in effective pocket size shortly after 43 degrees to represent the object ball getting closer to and then freezing on the rail.
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Hmm... I'd be interested in Dave's explanation. My intuition is that, at a given distance from the pocket, any distance from the rail reduces effective pocket size, but it wouldn't be the first time (by a long shot) I learned something from Dave.

Thanks for pointing it out.

pj
chgo
 
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dr_dave

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
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Patrick Johnson said:
Hmm... I'd be interested in Dave's explanation. My intuition is that, at a given distance from the pocket, any distance from the rail reduces effective pocket size, but it wouldn't be the first time (by a long shot) I learned something from Dave.
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The effects obviously vary with pocket geometry; but in general, with slow speed shots, the effective size of a corner pocket is bigger coming in from a small angle off the cushion. If you or others want to see why, check out the articles and other resources here:

pocket effective size and center effects

Catch you later,
Dave
 
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greyghost

greyghost

Coast to Coast
Silver Member
realkingcobra said:
Before Simonis types of cloth took over the market, pool was played on woven wool cloths, and they had a tendency to form ditches along the nose of the rails, and if you cut a ball along the nose of the cushion the object ball would actually travel down the length of the rails staying in that ditch, and even to the point of wobbling back and forth during its roll to the pocket, as long as it stayed in the ditch, it was going in the pocket.
Click to expand...



Simon is and the worsted wools are woven wool thread into said fabric. It’s suit quality fabric basically.

You got it backwards like a wool sweater it’s more like a knit and fluffy and not strong....but a woven wool fabric, worsted wool is extremely strong. It’s also from a longer wool fiber producing sheep.

Longer the fiber the better, lasts longer, like flax~Irish linen


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
greyghost

greyghost

Coast to Coast
Silver Member
greyghost said:
Simon is and the worsted wools are woven wool thread into said fabric. It’s suit quality fabric basically.

You got it backwards like a wool sweater it’s more like a knit and fluffy and not strong....but a woven wool fabric, worsted wool is extremely strong. It’s also from a longer wool fiber producing sheep.

Longer the fiber the better, lasts longer, like flax~Irish linen


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...



It was probably just a spin yarn that wasn’t combed, Simonis is a twill type fabric, you can see it in the diagonal weave. Worsted and twill type cloths both shine when they are wearing in. Like you mentioned earlier the weaves tighter so the threads just push together tighter and flatter sort of how we do our linen cue wraps and burnish them.

a niche developed high end suit cloth


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
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