Developing Expertise In Pool

ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Gold Member
Silver Member
theory vs practice

No criticism was implied only noted difference. I did say it was excellent material. An understanding that theory vs practice is a critical differentiation, when considering evidence based research, is needed. Theory often fails to differentiate contexts. It is data only until applied within a situation. Ghost ball is based on a theoretical elasticity model. It works in space, a singular context. The context changes when applied in a more down to earth scenario. That is why the Dr. Dave research, the high speed camera work of some European researchers and the recent 35000 frames per second footage from Barry Stark, add context, within the application of theory.



Theory is a wonderful thing and can speed along practical learning. However, I have competed at many things including pool of course. Doing so I have gotten my ass kicked many a time by people not nearly as "smart" as me!

I like the simplicity of some balls and a stick, and the endless complications of the interplay between them on a pool table. I am far smarter now but I can't help remembering that the Hu of forty or forty-five years ago that didn't know crap except run the simplest pattern could spot the Hu of today almost anything at all and still win.

Hu
 

Imac007

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I agree that knowledge and understanding can improve as more people theorize, analyze, experiment, and discover, but I get the sense that you haven't "done your homework" to know what stuff is already fully understood or in need of knowledge evolution (or revolution)..
My comment “ Evidence based research is Dr, Dave”s realm but his research only yields the insights that emerge to him. The evidence may yield more insights when viewed with new eyes. This is how knowledge evolves.” was in no way a criticism of existing knowledge. In fact, the throw research you did with inside english was in my mind when the comment was made. Your intent when doing the test with draw or follow plus inside english, showed about 1° of throw across all angles tested. The question this answered was what will happen if you applied english in that fashion over those angles? When I saw the result I asked how can I use this information within the context of ghost ball aiming? It led me to a consistent way of aligning using inside english. The resultant insight was simply an example of seeing the data from a different perspective.

Applying your research is part of nearly every shot I make. I combine the inside english insight with your gearing english insights, giving me an ever evolving simple cueing system capable of using the ghost ball as a starting reference.

Without your evidence based research that would not be possible. Thank you.
 

Protractor

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Without gravity there would be no static friction on contact. That’s why the elasticity model works in space. Without static friction to hold the balls in place sliding friction Is negligible. Sliding friction is due to surface imperfections. Without static friction the.first contact of imperfections will cause the surfaces to separate, no sustained slide, just an elastic rebound.

Probably picking nits, but doesn't static friction pertain to two or more bodies at rest that are touching each other?

If a ball in motion strikes one at rest, wouldn't that result in kinetic friction?
 

straightline

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The way I see throw working is gearing. I think that's built into all ball collisions. Also, balls at rest sit in a dimple; their own private curved space and climbing out to get moving contributes to the effect. I brought this up with a credible mathemetician who said the balls will always move in straight lines with no vector hiccups. I left it at that.
 

Protractor

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I just went back and watched part 1 of Dr. Dave's "Top 10 Things..." throw vid. I watched it a few years back and thought to myself that I don't need to worry about any of that because for some reason, I do not appear to miss balls due to throw.

Watching it a second time, it is apparent that I still shouldn't worry about it. It's not that I don't see and comprehend what is being shown in the vid - I had about 2 years of physics under my belt when I first picked up a cue - it's just that it doesn't affect my pocketing success.You could ask anyone that has played me; I do not have difficulty making long, thin cuts/back cuts, banks, and other challenging shots on all kinds of tables under mostly bar conditions (unclean balls, marginal cloth, etc.)

I get down on the shot with the cue lined up through the CB and pointing at the desired impact spot on the OB, opposite the pocket. I might be subconsciously using the ghost ball, or somehow subconsciously compensate for throw, but all I'm really aware of is that I am staring at the point of intended contract when I deliver the stroke,

I typically play center ball unless there is a reason to apply side spin, low or high and hit it ranging from very soft to very hard depending on what the shot requires, so it puzzles me that CIT doesn't cause me problems. I have used throw to gear a ball into a pocket where it does not want to go but that is the exception.

Just curious; does everyone else on this thread have to consciously compensate for CIT to pocket?
 

straightline

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I just went back and watched part 1 of Dr. Dave's "Top 10 Things..." throw vid. I watched it a few years back and thought to myself that I don't need to worry about any of that because for some reason, I do not appear to miss balls due to throw.

Watching it a second time, it is apparent that I still shouldn't worry about it. It's not that I don't see and comprehend what is being shown in the vid - I had about 2 years of physics under my belt when I first picked up a cue - it's just that it doesn't affect my pocketing success.You could ask anyone that has played me; I do not have difficulty making long, thin cuts/back cuts, banks, and other challenging shots on all kinds of tables under mostly bar conditions (unclean balls, marginal cloth, etc.)

I get down on the shot with the cue lined up through the CB and pointing at the desired impact spot on the OB, opposite the pocket. I might be subconsciously using the ghost ball, or somehow subconsciously compensate for throw, but all I'm really aware of is that I am staring at the point of intended contract when I deliver the stroke,

I typically play center ball unless there is a reason to apply side spin, low or high and hit it ranging from very soft to very hard depending on what the shot requires, so it puzzles me that CIT doesn't cause me problems. I have used throw to gear a ball into a pocket where it does not want to go but that is the exception.

Just curious; does everyone else on this thread have to consciously compensate for CIT to pocket?
Road Rules clearly state - slow rolling is a no no. I don't exactly subscribe but I am curious how you do approach the variety of conditions that present themselves. Certainly adjustments have to be made (?)
 

Protractor

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Road Rules clearly state - slow rolling is a no no. I don't exactly subscribe but I am curious how you do approach the variety of conditions that present themselves. Certainly adjustments have to be made (?)

That is my point; I am not making any kind of conscious adjustments to compensate for throw, even on slow rolls with extreme cuts. According to what I see in Dr. Dave's vid, I should be missing shots left and right, so it puzzles me. I must be doing it subconsciously; the laws of physics don't take a break while I am at the table.

I am not going to obsess about it at this point, What I am doing, whether I am aware of it or not, is working and I have been using my method (?) since I first started playing, 50 years ago.
 

straightline

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
That is my point; I am not making any kind of conscious adjustments to compensate for throw, even on slow rolls with extreme cuts. According to what I see in Dr. Dave's vid, I should be missing shots left and right, so it puzzles me. I must be doing it subconsciously; the laws of physics don't take a break while I am at the table.

I am not going to obsess about it at this point, What I am doing, whether I am aware of it or not, is working and I have been using my method (?) since I first started playing, 50 years ago.

Barring invisible friends you must be shooting every shot as a unique billiard event. IOW cinching every shot on its own merits.
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
I get down on the shot with the cue lined up through the CB and pointing at the desired impact spot on the OB, opposite the pocket. I might be subconsciously using the ghost ball, or somehow subconsciously compensate for throw, but all I'm really aware of is that I am staring at the point of intended contract when I deliver the stroke
If you're pointing your cue at the OB contact point, yet not hitting every shot too thick, then you're definitely making some significant unconscious aiming adjustments.

pj
chgo
 

Kdogster

Registered
Road Rules clearly state - slow rolling is a no no. I don't exactly subscribe but I am curious how you do approach the variety of conditions that present themselves. Certainly adjustments have to be made (?)
What are these Road Rules you mentioned? Can you provide the list or is this just an informal way of saying "a good player knows" to do something? Thanks
 

Kdogster

Registered
Thanks much, Dr. Dave. That's a very comprehensive list. I know many of those tips, but certainly need to dig deeper on some of them. There's a wealth of info on your site.

As a footnote, I just picked up the HAPS series on Vimeo yesterday in fact to learn about some advanced topics. Your SAWS video has been a major boost to my game. I've got my BHE/FHE numbers memorized and it's made my consistency so much better. I appreciate the great instruction!
 

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
Thanks much, Dr. Dave. That's a very comprehensive list. I know many of those tips, but certainly need to dig deeper on some of them. There's a wealth of info on your site.
You're welcome. I'm glad you like my stuff.

As a footnote, I just picked up the HAPS series on Vimeo yesterday in fact to learn about some advanced topics. Your SAWS video has been a major boost to my game. I've got my BHE/FHE numbers memorized and it's made my consistency so much better. I appreciate the great instruction!
I'm glad to hear it. SAWS might not be for everybody; but for the people who don't yet have solid intuition for aiming with sidespin, it can yield amazing results. I use SAWS religiously when I play, and it helps a lot.

Best regards,
Dave
 

Protractor

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Barring invisible friends you must be shooting every shot as a unique billiard event. IOW cinching every shot on its own merits.

That is what I try to do. The only thing that straight in shots share with all others is
the angle of incidence. They differ as to where the CB has to land in order to make the pattern work, whether it is zone or precision position that is required.

Cuts, banks and kicks only increase the complexity. When I was first learning and realized the value of pattern play in 8/9 ball and straight pool I would decide where the CB needed to land, think to myself,"looks like I need to spin it over there" get down on the shot and use BHE to make it happen, purely by feel, no real aiming used.

Because there were no learning resources back then, with the exception of Mosconi's book that I found later on, I learned it all on my own through experimentation and watching players that were better than me. But they wouldn't show me how to do anything and there were no instructors or college courses in my socially distanced location I didn't have much of a choice.If Dr. Dave would have been around back then I would have certainly signed up.
 

Imac007

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
In match adjusting



Well it’s back to league play. Last night was a test after over 6 months away from play. Part of my game is about adjusting at the table.

Before tinkering my first check was to make sure I was looking directly down the cue. I needed to make sure I was seeing equal amounts of both sides of the shaft.

The first thing that kicks in are the 3 principles that Jimmy White and Ronnie O’Sullivan espouse.

Step into the shot, cue straight and stay down.

Following that format failed to put me in stroke.

Breaking that process down farther, stepping into the shot only works if the shot line is on the mark. I use parallel aiming. So I located the parallel line through both balls and found my contact point to contact point line. A parallel shift to center ball sets the ghost ball line. Any necessary adjustments are applied setting the cue line. Stepping on that line improved shooting.

Troubleshooting farther had me questioning whether I was moving my body to the cue or pulling the cue to my body. Once it was sure I was keeping the shot line my primary organization reference, I turned to straight stroking. With a walled stroke I was confident that the cue running beside my chest to my bridge would run straight unless my cueing arm folding at the elbow skewed the travel. I checked that my shoulder was over the line, no problem. So lined up and cue moving straight, what could be the problem?

That left my grip and stroke. If everything is lined up, the subconscious mind shouldn’t feel a need to adjust. Just like Ronnie talked about during the WCS, it’s all about the stroke. Finally I had an area I could check. I allow a squeeze in my grip to adjust automatically. That allows my finger tips to add to feel and the sideways pinch avoids a fisted curl. I had to return to the earlier passive mindset.

Starting from a passive cue hold, is my subconscious tempted to adjust? The answer was no, however, my hand hold was already in a ready position. That meant it was anticipating having to act. A final adjustment was to relax my cueing arm and hand, AND ADD TRUST TO THE EQUATION. A deep in breath, a shoulder shrug and drop and ready to go.

Next was focus. It needed to be outward on achieving a result. When I add trust, the stroke can return to the subconscious. The conscious mind thinks in parts. The whole shot is a patterned assembly in the subconscious bridging unconscious resources and conscious intentions. Find the shot. Feel the shot and trust it to happen.

Finally the cue was going through and producing the desired outcomes. It only took about 6½ games into an 8 game set to polish some rust off, after 6 months away. Not bad.

In-match adjusting is often the domain of the expert. The non-expert is more likely to retreat into old ways, their comfort zone, when faced with a miss or two. Well intentioned changes to any part of mechanics are soon discarded in favour of the old ways, that feel more familiar.

Hopefully this process will help others develop that skill.
It’s nearly a month since I was back to league. Our league has 4 man teams. I captain a team of 7. I sat out 2 weeks and a bye captured another. Decided to devote an hour and a half to ready for my Monday matches. Started by simply getting a feel for my cue and straight cueing. Diagonal single ball stroke into the pocket, stopping to check that follow through points into the pocket. Progressed then to align and shoot, eyes closed, then open, checking for cue pointing into pocket.

Read my previous in match adjustments. My focus today will be on aiming, body to cue and passive stroke hand sense.

Next came the Effren table spread. Played an 8 ball version. Ball in hand, choice of high or low. Had to reshoot one shot, missed position, not shot. Second spread I focused on making sure, during setup that I put the cue on line, stepped to the line then my body moves to the cue, retaining line integrity. During this run, I started to look at the balls in clusters. There are usually two or three balls in an area such as one end. The total pattern is usually a cluster with a transition ball that moves me to the next two or three balls. The final ball in that pattern needs to transition into the final pattern leading to an opportunity to finish. The early planning stage starts here and makes its way back to the first ball.

Next miss I missed a shot with a higher difficulty level. Rather than retry I took a break. I had set up my phone on a tripod nearby to record. Looking at the missed shot, I noticed it wasn’t a shooting error on that shot. It was a slight miss two shots earlier. Ran too far on position. That made the next shot a touch harder and position harder too. Basically the way most issues like this snowball into a miss. Reset the earlier setup and ran out the balls this time.

Break practice. I had watched the fada video log On YouTube. He has one on breaking with Siming Chen. I used her suggestions and basically, only a couple dry breaks, this session.

Next a break, followed by game play. Two games like that.

Set up a 7 ball finishing drill. Three stripes, 3 solids and the black. Thrown on table. Ball in hand, choice of set. The idea is that the player should be able to get out. On a miss, switch to the other group. Once again the intention should be to finish.

My ride arrived. Feel ready for Monday. Opponents were in 1st place ahead of us, last time I played, so need my A game.

Saturday, my debrief day. With the video plus my notes, I now have a prematch strategy.
 

straightline

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
That is what I try to do. The only thing that straight in shots share with all others is
the angle of incidence. They differ as to where the CB has to land in order to make the pattern work, whether it is zone or precision position that is required.

Cuts, banks and kicks only increase the complexity. When I was first learning and realized the value of pattern play in 8/9 ball and straight pool I would decide where the CB needed to land, think to myself,"looks like I need to spin it over there" get down on the shot and use BHE to make it happen, purely by feel, no real aiming used.

Because there were no learning resources back then, with the exception of Mosconi's book that I found later on, I learned it all on my own through experimentation and watching players that were better than me. But they wouldn't show me how to do anything and there were no instructors or college courses in my socially distanced location I didn't have much of a choice.If Dr. Dave would have been around back then I would have certainly signed up.
Ok you're a good natural shooter. (mean that in the best way) Curious about how much resolution your approach has with shots in between your reference shots. Do you hit the same part of the pockets all the time? Lot of ghostball shooters are all over the aperture because they expect the pocket slack cover the difference.
 
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