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arnaldo
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09-14-2016, 09:07 PM

In this vid of the drama, (at the 1:06 start point) Earl unmistakably and precisely points his shaft to the exact pocket he's designating for his cut shot:

https://youtu.be/v1pps7Bvf8o?t=66

An insightful notion someone offered earlier contrasted Earl's native "Calina" accent with the Scotch form of English that Jayson grew up speaking (and hearing, of course).

So, Earl possibly muttered something approximating "tain" (as a Carolinian might) for the 10-ball in a low voice as he swiftly pointed his cue shaft towards the pocket he was designating for his shot, and Jayson conceivably, reflexively interpreted (heard) the "tain" pronunciation as some form of the word "two".

Just my helpfully-intended conjecture. No aspersion intended on either player's native accent. (Both are far more mellifluous and pleasant to many listeners than my own too-rapid and mumbled native Brooklyn-ese.)

Arnaldo


“When the action starts, it may not go the way you planned, and you’re down to your reflexes. That’s where your roadwork shows . . . If you cheated on that in the dark of the morning, well, you’re gonna get found out now, under the bright lights.” – Joe “Smokin’ Joe” Frazier

Last edited by arnaldo; 09-14-2016 at 09:10 PM.
  
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jay helfert
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09-14-2016, 10:10 PM

I'm not a big fan of Earl's all the time but in this case the TD got it right and Jayson showed bad sportsmanship. Pool as usual in 2016.


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09-14-2016, 10:40 PM

Jayson is an a-hole. If he wants to win on some bullshit, all the power to him.
  
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09-14-2016, 10:46 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BeiberLvr View Post
So if you and I were playing straight pool, and I was shooting only obvious shots, but called the wrong ball every time.

You would be okay with that?
If you and I were playing pool you wouldn't be shooting...you'd be watching. I'm okay with you watching.

As far as I'm concerned, I like playing "old school" where you call EVERY ball and the POCKET on EVERY shot in EVERY game. I also like playing where you call the POCKET for the NEXT ball. If you screw up on position, you still have to shoot for the pocket you called beforehand.

I also like playing two-shot roll out where you can't get lucky safes.
  
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Blue Jam
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09-15-2016, 04:46 AM

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Originally Posted by PoolBum View Post
I didn't think the ruling should have gone against Earl.

Saying that the only way the ruling could have gone against him is if there was clear evidence that he called the 2 ball is not the same thing as saying that the ruling should have gone go against him if there was clear evidence that he called the 2 ball.

I believe the call-shot rules are there to make clear what shot the shooter is shooting when it's not an obvious shot (combinations, banks, clusters, etc.), not to catch someone on a technicality when they misspeak and call the wrong ball.

So, I think it was obvious that Earl was shooting the 10, and I think he should have gotten credit for pocketing the 10.
Basically, you are OK with using a technicality about what you wrote to justify your conflicting opinion that using a technicality of the rules is somehow wrong. The cognitive dissonance in your head must be unbearable! How do you cope? I'm concerned about your well-being.
  
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Physiqz
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09-15-2016, 05:58 AM

Even though this was poor, still good for sport. Drama in sports always good, gets people talking about it, Look at the NFL and NBA etc, major drama, and they are major sports.
  
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09-15-2016, 06:51 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Physiqz View Post
Even though this was poor, still good for sport. Drama in sports always good, gets people talking about it, Look at the NFL and NBA etc, major drama, and they are major sports.
Yes, drama gets people talking but the NFL and NBA are not major sports because of the drama. They are major sports because people like to watch them.

Second, the 14.1 drama can be viewed in two ways:

1. Two passionate players bark at each other and now we have a passionate new rivalry going into the next tournament. That is good because people will want to watch what happens.

2. Pool is a second-rate sport that can't get decent officiating at a "world" event. This is bad because if a "world" event looks amateurish then who will put it on TV or Internet channels that aren't pay-per-view?

Incidentally, no one but pool aficionados are talking about this. I posted about the kerfuffle in the sports section of a different forum and a guy who used to play 9-ball tournaments back in the day (he claims to have played -- not successfully-- against Hall, Sigel, etc.) hadn't heard anything about it.


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09-15-2016, 07:26 AM

This thread is nauseating...
  
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Physiqz
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09-15-2016, 09:33 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by krupa View Post
Yes, drama gets people talking but the NFL and NBA are not major sports because of the drama. They are major sports because people like to watch them.

Second, the 14.1 drama can be viewed in two ways:

1. Two passionate players bark at each other and now we have a passionate new rivalry going into the next tournament. That is good because people will want to watch what happens.

2. Pool is a second-rate sport that can't get decent officiating at a "world" event. This is bad because if a "world" event looks amateurish then who will put it on TV or Internet channels that aren't pay-per-view?

Incidentally, no one but pool aficionados are talking about this. I posted about the kerfuffle in the sports section of a different forum and a guy who used to play 9-ball tournaments back in the day (he claims to have played -- not successfully-- against Hall, Sigel, etc.) hadn't heard anything about it.
I agree completely. Should definitely be able to get referee. Difference between pool in the 90's, 00's and now
  
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09-15-2016, 10:39 AM

Here is my observations:
3 Guys keeping score and nobody actively reffing the game...poor
Ref should rack all balls and call each shot
Earl meant the 10 and made it. If they didn't have such bad blood I suspect Jayson would had said fine...or not.
They called the same foul on him before and he accepted it...thus the precedent was set.

I would have bounced Earl out of that match long ago. They didn't and thus they gave him a chance to win. Which he did. Nothing to see here. Jayson's only mistake was losing his cool. Easy to say but if he had kept his head about him and you just never know. With all the Drama Earl may not have made it out.

The TD was prancing like a clown. All the blame lays at his feet. With some control none of this happens. He poured the gas and stood back. Do your job. Which does not include waiving your tail feathers. Where was Charlie??? My house is burning down I'm grabbing a hose.


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Bob Jewett
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09-15-2016, 11:28 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick B View Post
... 3 Guys keeping score and nobody actively reffing the game...poor ...
We were only keeping score because we were sitting there anyway and the players didn't seem to need the distraction or have the necessary skills at arithmetic.

I agree about the lack of a ref at the table.


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BRussell
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09-15-2016, 01:54 PM

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Originally Posted by Blue Jam View Post
Good, I'm glad we have consensus that Earl lied, and through this unsportsmanlike conduct cheated to gain an advantage in pure desperation. What would you suggest by way of punishment? Assuming you don't endorse this type of cheating?

So Earl is a cheat, that's a fact. Deciding if the shot was "obvious", however, is subjective. To me an obvious shot is where only the cue ball and one object ball are involved in the shot. But here Earl talked about playing a carom, then called the two and got down and shot a very thin cut sending whitely pace into the stack that contained the two, scattering the pack. Given that I can't agree that the shot was obvious, I can't agree that it was an obvious misstatement by Earl when he called the two. He's a substantially better player than I ever will be and will see all kinds of shots that I won't, especially playing caroms and plants. What is obvious, is that since the referee called a loss of innings for EXACTLY the same thing earlier in the match, the precedent had been set and it was quite understandable to expect the same outcome would occur here. I mean, you would be miffed if during a match someone scratched and carried on shooting, wouldn't you? Would you stay in your chair if that happened? Would you keep your cool if they then told the ref that they never scratched? How about if the ref agreed it was obviously a mistake to scratch and they should keep their innings? What if the cheat then refused your concession and tried to carry on shooting?

To answer the second part of your question "And do you think the failure to win on that is being cheated?" No, I don't think that failure to win on that is being cheated, even though it would be pretty tough to take the rules seeming to change at such a crucial point in the match. The cheating was the lies told by Earl about what had happened. Earl had called nearly every ball in the match, there's no way he didn't know he called a ball, even if he was confused about which one it might have been.
I've watched the whole thing again (here's a good video of the whole thing from start to finish, and this one is good too) and I completely take it back. What I heard earlier was someone else claiming that Earl said "I didn't call no ball," but in reality what he says is (paraphrasing) "nobody is calling balls" meaning, I think, that there's a gentleman's agreement that you don't have to call all your shots, and then "I could get up any time and claim you didn't call a ball, you didn't call NO ball," meaning that whenever Jayson shoots a shot where he doesn't call it Earl could have gotten up and called a foul but he doesn't because they're not playing that way. You look at it again and tell me that he lies about what he did. It's a little hard to make out but I'm pretty confident he's not claiming to have "called no ball" as I originally thought.

And all that was after the ref had already left anyway. He was talking to the audience.

You can argue that he should have admitted it to the ref and explained that he had a verbal slip and that they shouldn't hold that against him. He didn't do that. But what I saw was more him not wanting to admit anything than explicitly lying like you claimed.

Earl does many terrible things, he's a horrible representative for pool and for the US, and I think that is coloring what people see in this incident. But in this case I have no doubt that Jayson was the poor sport far more than Earl.
  
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09-15-2016, 02:13 PM

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Originally Posted by BRussell View Post
I've watched the whole thing again (here's a good video of the whole thing from start to finish, and this one is good too) and I completely take it back. What I heard earlier was someone else claiming that Earl said "I didn't call no ball," but in reality what he says is (paraphrasing) "nobody is calling balls" meaning, I think, that there's a gentleman's agreement that you don't have to call all your shots, and then "I could get up any time and claim you didn't call a ball, you didn't call NO ball," meaning that whenever Jayson shoots a shot where he doesn't call it Earl could have gotten up and called a foul but he doesn't because they're not playing that way. You look at it again and tell me that he lies about what he did. It's a little hard to make out but I'm pretty confident he's not claiming to have "called no ball" as I originally thought.

And all that was after the ref had already left anyway. He was talking to the audience.

You can argue that he should have admitted it to the ref and explained that he had a verbal slip and that they shouldn't hold that against him. He didn't do that. But what I saw was more him not wanting to admit anything than explicitly lying like you claimed.

Earl does many terrible things, he's a horrible representative for pool and for the US, and I think that is coloring what people see in this incident. But in this case I have no doubt that Jayson was the poor sport far more than Earl.
If he didn't call any ball I suspect there wouldn't have been a massive issue. The problem was that he called the 2 and shot the 10.
  
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BRussell
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09-15-2016, 02:19 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by vjmehra View Post
If he didn't call any ball I suspect there wouldn't have been a massive issue. The problem was that he called the 2 and shot the 10.
Yeah I agree. But at first I thought he had lied to the ref about what had happened, and after looking at it again I don't think so.
  
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09-15-2016, 02:28 PM

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Originally Posted by BRussell View Post
I've watched the whole thing again (here's a good video of the whole thing from start to finish, and this one is good too) and I completely take it back. What I heard earlier was someone else claiming that Earl said "I didn't call no ball," but in reality what he says is (paraphrasing) "nobody is calling balls" meaning, I think, that there's a gentleman's agreement that you don't have to call all your shots, and then "I could get up any time and claim you didn't call a ball, you didn't call NO ball," meaning that whenever Jayson shoots a shot where he doesn't call it Earl could have gotten up and called a foul but he doesn't because they're not playing that way. You look at it again and tell me that he lies about what he did. It's a little hard to make out but I'm pretty confident he's not claiming to have "called no ball" as I originally thought.

And all that was after the ref had already left anyway. He was talking to the audience.

You can argue that he should have admitted it to the ref and explained that he had a verbal slip and that they shouldn't hold that against him. He didn't do that. But what I saw was more him not wanting to admit anything than explicitly lying like you claimed.

Earl does many terrible things, he's a horrible representative for pool and for the US, and I think that is coloring what people see in this incident. But in this case I have no doubt that Jayson was the poor sport far more than Earl.
this makes entirely too much sense please stop cluttering up the forums with common sense one of us may go blind!
  
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