How league operators take more than they give

lorider

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It sounds like you have a great room with great clientele.However, there are reasons that rooms like yours are now the exception rather than the norm. Very few people today want to spend hours in a pool room whether it be to practice or match up. Those of us that love spending our time like that are few and far between. Most players today are casual, they want a place to have some drinks, let the old lady dance or do some karaoke, and play a couple games of pool for beers.

I have had a home table for years. Friends would come over shoot for a few hours and that was the extent of their pool life.

So let's look at some of the way APA has changed that for 3 of my closest friends. Since I started an APA team :

- All 3 have purchased their own cue. 2 players hxt's and a mcdermott.
- 2 of them purchases a break/jump cue
-1 of them is currently in the market for a cheaper Schonn.
-They all get excited about earning different APA patches
-They get the APA magazine, and actually read about pool, tips, and tricks
- Since we played tricups at a large pool hall, they have gone back a couple times and entered Saturday night Scotch doubles tournaments.

BTW, two of them are APA 3's and one just got bumped up to a 4 and was ecstatic that his practice was paying off.

APA is bad for pool? I would hate for them to run into an 'expert" who tried to tell them that bar league pool is a joke, and 7 ft tables "ain't real pool". BTW, we play APA on 9 ft. Gold Crowns. It makes no difference to them. and it sure as heck don't turn them into APA 6's when they come to my house and shoot on my Valley.

APA ain't bad for pool. APA is the only thing keeping pool alive in many places.

Great post . :thumbup:
 

lorider

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
My first post was about apa but now i am going to touch upon pool halls and leagues in general since that was also brought up in the op. I recall reason about the op opening up this venue after it burned down. Kudos to him.

It also seems like he has a real negative attitude about leagues and caters to " serious players " that plays on 9 footers only. Again kudos to him ....if he can keep I going.

A pool hall here that cater to serious players that played on 9 footers only closed down while several that have open arms seem to be doing quite well.

How well? Lets see. One changed things quite a bit after promoting leagues in his place. Promotions such as paying my money league teams yearly fee when I moved my team to his place. Opening up the tables for free practice 2 hours before league starts and then again after league until closing time. He has since changed to keeping the tables open all the time and charging each team 10.00 for league. That's double jeapordy league which totals up to a whopping 1.00 per match ....not a game. Per match .

Now you may wonder what has been the outcome of all these changes. Well for starters he was able to purchase 2 diamond 9 footers and 2 diamond 7 footers to fo along with 12 valleys and 14 gold crowns. He also was able to promote money added pro tournaments that have been streamed . He has also sponsored several pros in various tournaments all over the country . He also hosts action matches with pros. The latest I heard about was a one pocket marc between josh Roberts and Tony cohan. Oh yea..speaking of one pocket. He has a few tables reserved strictly for one pocket and locals do match up for a few dollars every now and then .

How has he managed to do all that ? Well it darn sure was not income generated by some serious players sitting around the pool hall looking for an easy mark. His sunday in house apa league grew so large that all his bar tables cannot accommodate all the teams and 6 teams have to rotate on the 9 footers every week.

We also have another pool hall that offers incentives for league players. Free practice. Pays half the teams weekly fees . Even offers to match the apa national travel fund for any team that plays out of his venue and qualifies for nationals. Last I heard our area travel fund is 4,900.00. That means the team gets an additional 4,900.00 from him because that's your home base.

Now both these guys are not giving all these incentives just because they like pool. Its strictly a business decision to entice more players to play in their establishment.

Good luck to the op with his establishment relying on strictly serious players.
 

lorider

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Pool leagues are for wankers.

Yea...guys like svb....sky woodwoodward....jason Kirkwood...alex olinger...brian parks and many more that could wipe the tables with your azz are real wankers aren't they. ?

They all played league at one time and a few like Brian .. Jason and Alex still do.


Your post should make the top 10 list of most idiotic posts ever. Do you have it in you to come up with an insightful and thought provoking reason for your opinion ?
 

SBC

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
My first post was about apa but now i am going to touch upon pool halls and leagues in general since that was also brought up in the op. I recall reason about the op opening up this venue after it burned down. Kudos to him.

It also seems like he has a real negative attitude about leagues and caters to " serious players " that plays on 9 footers only. Again kudos to him ....if he can keep I going.

A pool hall here that cater to serious players that played on 9 footers only closed down while several that have open arms seem to be doing quite well.

How well? Lets see. One changed things quite a bit after promoting leagues in his place. Promotions such as paying my money league teams yearly fee when I moved my team to his place. Opening up the tables for free practice 2 hours before league starts and then again after league until closing time. He has since changed to keeping the tables open all the time and charging each team 10.00 for league. That's double jeapordy league which totals up to a whopping 1.00 per match ....not a game. Per match .

Now you may wonder what has been the outcome of all these changes. Well for starters he was able to purchase 2 diamond 9 footers and 2 diamond 7 footers to fo along with 12 valleys and 14 gold crowns. He also was able to promote money added pro tournaments that have been streamed . He has also sponsored several pros in various tournaments all over the country . He also hosts action matches with pros. The latest I heard about was a one pocket marc between josh Roberts and Tony cohan. Oh yea..speaking of one pocket. He has a few tables reserved strictly for one pocket and locals do match up for a few dollars every now and then .

How has he managed to do all that ? Well it darn sure was not income generated by some serious players sitting around the pool hall looking for an easy mark. His sunday in house apa league grew so large that all his bar tables cannot accommodate all the teams and 6 teams have to rotate on the 9 footers every week.

We also have another pool hall that offers incentives for league players. Free practice. Pays half the teams weekly fees . Even offers to match the apa national travel fund for any team that plays out of his venue and qualifies for nationals. Last I heard our area travel fund is 4,900.00. That means the team gets an additional 4,900.00 from him because that's your home base.

Now both these guys are not giving all these incentives just because they like pool. Its strictly a business decision to entice more players to play in their establishment.

Good luck to the op with his establishment relying on strictly serious players.

I am going to start a league. Either in house or TAP. We are 4 hours from Super Billiards Expo which is half a TAP tournament. The new TAP leagues in Utica and Binghamton are another consideration.

I'm against the moves the area APA operators have pulled and we will make my our stand. People have choices and we will offer them a better one.

We reopened Salt City Billiards after the fire for the love of the game. If I broke even for life it is fine by me.
 

lorider

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I am going to start a league. Either in house or TAP. We are 4 hours from Super Billiards Expo which is half a TAP tournament. The new TAP leagues in Utica and Binghamton are another consideration.

I'm against the moves the area APA operators have pulled and we will make my our stand. People have choices and we will offer them a better one.

We reopened Salt City Billiards after the fire for the love of the game. If I broke even for life it is fine by me.

I must say you obviously must love pool. Not trying to put words in your mouth or being argumentative but the 3rd paragraph in your op was devoted entirely to your dislike of leagues and your opinion of how they harm pool.

Now you mention that you are starring a league....in house or tap at your venue. You say you will offer league players another choice of leagues beside apa. I think that's great....as long as you don't try to strong arm them by telling them they cannot play apa also. Some people such as myself just like playing pool and play in more than one league a week. I have played apa..napa and an in house money league every week at one time.

I sincerely hope you do great with your pool hall
 

krupa

The Dream Operator
Silver Member
I am going to start a league. Either in house or TAP. We are 4 hours from Super Billiards Expo which is half a TAP tournament. The new TAP leagues in Utica and Binghamton are another consideration.

I'm against the moves the area APA operators have pulled and we will make my our stand. People have choices and we will offer them a better one.

We reopened Salt City Billiards after the fire for the love of the game. If I broke even for life it is fine by me.

In addition to APA, Ithaca also has a NAPA league. I play in the NAPA league and we have a good group of people who want to see everyone improve.

There are no "23 rules" in NAPA so you can have a really strong team if you want.
You can play on 7 or 9 foot tables.
Online scorekeeping app (without that inning-counting BS)
No sandbagging: if you win your match your skill level goes up, if you lose it goes down.
Each week is lagger's choice: 8, 9 or 10 ball. (mostly BCA rules with a couple tweaks.)

We have a team division and a singles division.

napaleagues.com, naparules.com
 

336Robin

Multiverse Operative
Silver Member
How long have you owned this place?


Here in upstate NY league operators from the APA are running scared. Scared they will lose their cash cows with the threat of TAP league and new pool rooms like mine in Syracuse. They threaten to pull teams from rooms that have hosted them and tell their players to boycott others. All because they don't want to lose money. These guys don't care about pool.

They have employed shady tactics in Binghampton, Utica and Syracuse. They don't care the damage it does to pool because any bar with a crappy Valley table is good enough for them. But is that good enough for pool?

I have never been a fan of leagues. I don't see them generating strong players with a love of the history this game has or concern for it's present state. The growth of leagues has changed things for the worse IMO.

Here in central New York there has been a renaissance of sorts. In my room, The New Salt City Billiards, we cater to players who have played all their lives on big tables, playing a variety of games. Utica has a TAP league started by concerned players and now Binghamton has started as well. The tactics of APA here are not going unnoticed and are going to be met with resistance.
 

BasementDweller

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
While I used to chime in with the anti-league and anti-bar table crowd, I now laugh at them.

Pool is very difficult!

For a working stiff to become competitive at this game it's nearly impossible to do so on a 9 footer when you are left competing against guys (and some gals) that have dedicated nearly their entire lives to this game. Sure it can be done but it will probably take you a decade at least. Very few people choose to go down this road. Luckily, there's bar table pool for them. Do you guys really think that if bar tables went away tomorrow all these bar table players would all of sudden become so dedicated to the game that they would spend countless hours in our pool rooms on 9 foot tables?

Professional pool is NOT struggling because of bar tables. Bar tables bring so many people in to the game that would otherwise just find a different hobby. This is why we have so many more players than anybody else in the world.
 
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buckshotshoey

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The OP said in post "APA league operators". All three of the areas he mentioned are all pretty close together. Is it possible this is just one league opperator that's causing the problem?

My suggestion is report him to the APA. They WILL remove them if it is warranted. We had a previous LO that was withholding Vegas funds to finance his establishment. There was more, but this was the big one. The APA yanked his franchise and took him to court for the money. He lost his bar in the process. They WILL remove an unethical LO.

The current LO did a better job. My small town only had 8 teams. When that went to 5. It got boring playing the same people all of the time. He had to roll us into another larger town. That was ok but the traveling got to be a pain. I had to travel 60 miles round trip to play when away. I had to drop. It was to much....especially when gas was 4 dollara a gallon at the time. Then before you know it, it's was 3 teams.

Then some people got butt hurt when they went to Vegas. When they were eliminated, they had to fly home. He said he wasn't paying for them to be on vacation. So it was either fly home, or foot the rest of the bill themselves. I would think he could have told them to enter some of the mini tournaments that are going on. They would still be representing the league area. Not sure how he did that. Or how he saved any money. The rooms are reserved for the week. If they left early, i think he still had to pay for the whole week. Didnt make sence. Now my town has 1 team that travels.

The other reason is money. A lot of the players in my area were whining that there was no payout. They think that getting handed 30 to 50 bucks a session make them hot pool players. I'm not in that crowd. 50 bucks in 3 or 4 months isn't crap, but it sure means a lot to some. The whole point of APA is going to Vegas. But most of these guys have no interest in that. They would rather have their 50 bucks.

But out of the ashes rose a BCA league. It is structured simular to Valley but we only play 4 players a night. We can play our 4 games each, and still be home by 10pm. Sometimes earlier. The 5 players per night on APA made for some late nights. MIDNIGHT some nights. When you have to get up at 0430, it really sucks.

A side note.... We had a Valley league but it fell apart. Some of the bar owners wanted to own their own tables. Valley is a vendors league and wouldn't sanction the league unless you played on their tables. Bar owners eventually said screw you.

One bar owner was leasing his table to the vendor for 1 dollar a year. He also paid the vendor to maintain the table. This went well for a while until one idiot (think stronger word here) made an official complaint to the sanctioning body. They said that was not allowed. The table had to be owned by the vendor. Well... by by Valley league.

Leagues have their issues, but it's the only thing that keeps pool going in my area. One bar, so far, had their table removed. Turned it into a dance floor. Another no has more corn hole players then pool players... times 3!
They even now have a Corn hole league! Corn hole....Now THAT is a stupid game. But it's growing and making money. AFAIC, they can have that game UP their corn hole.
 
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SBC

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
In addition to APA, Ithaca also has a NAPA league. I play in the NAPA league and we have a good group of people who want to see everyone improve.

There are no "23 rules" in NAPA so you can have a really strong team if you want.
You can play on 7 or 9 foot tables.
Online scorekeeping app (without that inning-counting BS)
No sandbagging: if you win your match your skill level goes up, if you lose it goes down.
Each week is lagger's choice: 8, 9 or 10 ball. (mostly BCA rules with a couple tweaks.)

We have a team division and a singles division.

napaleagues.com, naparules.com

I've heard it's a good league there with dedicated players. I know several of them and they are all good guys.
 

SBC

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
How long have you owned this place?

8/31/17. We opened with a pro event and SVB vs Shaw challenge match. Spent the entire summer fixing equipment damaged in the fire and finding a good lease space. We renovated the space and did all the work ourselves,

What we have now is pool heaven imo. 5 barbox, 5x10 heated billiards table and 10 nine footers. We are a room by players for players. All has been done with the players in mind. We will change the direction of pool locally because we now own the race track.
 
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Koop

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
While you are exploring options, I think you should look at USAPL. It is match play and totally integrated with Fargo Ratings. Games go into the system the night they are entered, and most are entered with a mobile scoring APP.

Of course many league players are casual and just looking for a fun night out. This is not a bad thing. What's bad, though, is when the league play is so separated from the more serious competitive play that the transition from a slightly more serious league player to a "player" is not seamless.

I think Fargo Ratings helps this because the league player who is, say, rated 419 who would never have thought of entering a tournament sees the occasional "450 and under" tournament and starts to think about it a bit more.

There are I think 57 active USAPL divisions in New England, mostly MA. And in the last few weeks I've seen them pop up in Baton Rouge LA, Greenville SC, Birmingham AL, and New Orleans, LA.

I 2nd this. Switched from APA to USAPL and would never look back. I really like FargoRate as a handicapping system and love getting away from the 23 rule. In my short time playing USAPL, around 2 years, I can also say that the nightly drama about handicaps and sandbagging is almost non existent.
 

336Robin

Multiverse Operative
Silver Member
8/31/18. We opened with a pro event and SVB vs Shaw challenge match. Spent the entire summer fixing equipment damaged in the fire and finding a good lease space. We renovated the space and did all the work ourselves,

What we have now is pool heaven imo. 5 barbox, 5x10 heated billiards table and 10 nine footers. We are a room by players for players. All has been done with the players in mind. We will change the direction of pool locally because we now own the race track.

Well your date is wrong, its not yet 8/31/18.
 

ctyhntr

RIP Kelly
Silver Member
Don't waste your time and energy focused on tearing down your competitors as you wont' have any energy left to build up your pool hall and your business.

I agree, explore the idea of starting an in-house. You can keep the good elements of TAP/APA and throw out the bad. This is how friends I know started their own leagues. Maybe use Fargo ratings in addition to APA/TAP handicaps. Check out BCA & ACS league sanctioning if you want to offer your players a chance to go to LaS Vegas.

If you don't already have your own website for players, consider BCA Leaguesys. I build and support WordPress and can create one.

If you build a better league product then the players will come. In my area, several of the pool halls have their own in-house leagues, in addition to hosting other leagues.

Best of luck

I am going to start a league. Either in house or TAP. We are 4 hours from Super Billiards Expo which is half a TAP tournament. The new TAP leagues in Utica and Binghamton are another consideration.

I'm against the moves the area APA operators have pulled and we will make my our stand. People have choices and we will offer them a better one.

We reopened Salt City Billiards after the fire for the love of the game. If I broke even for life it is fine by me.
 

buckshotshoey

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I 2nd this. Switched from APA to USAPL and would never look back. I really like FargoRate as a handicapping system and love getting away from the 23 rule. In my short time playing USAPL, around 2 years, I can also say that the nightly drama about handicaps and sandbagging is almost non existent.

I never minded the 23 rule. But I have seen teams get in trouble as they improved. Ours included. After you make a handicap of a good 6 or a 7, you should move on to the Masters division anyway. The only way to get better, IMO, is to play with people as good or better then you. Most here are forgetting what the APA is supposed to be about. It's for people to get into the game, be able to compete, and have fun.

Think of it this way..... how much fun would it be for a new, or unskilled player to get right into the Masters division? They would give up in a session. And how is a new or unskilled player supposed to get to that higher level if there is no proper place for him/her to start? Everybody keeps talking about "real pool players". How many "real pool players" are there going to be if we don't get new players into the sport? It's not likely to happen by being a bar banger.
 

pvc lou

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
There is no question that SBC loves pool, as well as his partner Mike. They BUSTED their butts last summer to put up that room within 2-3 months and people were coming in to play during construction.

So, all you guys dismissing his beef with the local APA stuff just don’t know what time it is. Syracuse is a real pool town, and without SBC and his pool family (including his lovely wife and his dad) who knows if that would be still so.

I must say you obviously must love pool. Not trying to put words in your mouth or being argumentative but the 3rd paragraph in your op was devoted entirely to your dislike of leagues and your opinion of how they harm pool.



Now you mention that you are starring a league....in house or tap at your venue. You say you will offer league players another choice of leagues beside apa. I think that's great....as long as you don't try to strong arm them by telling them they cannot play apa also. Some people such as myself just like playing pool and play in more than one league a week. I have played apa..napa and an in house money league every week at one time.



I sincerely hope you do great with your pool hall
 

Koop

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I never minded the 23 rule. But I have seen teams get in trouble as they improved. Ours included. After you make a handicap of a good 6 or a 7, you should move on to the Masters division anyway. The only way to get better, IMO, is to play with people as good or better then you. Most here are forgetting what the APA is supposed to be about. It's for people to get into the game, be able to compete, and have fun.

Think of it this way..... how much fun would it be for a new, or unskilled player to get right into the Masters division? They would give up in a session. And how is a new or unskilled player supposed to get to that higher level if there is no proper place for him/her to start? Everybody keeps talking about "real pool players". How many "real pool players" are there going to be if we don't get new players into the sport? It's not likely to happen by being a bar banger.

Not completely disagreeing with you but what happens when there is no masters division in your area? If you have one that's great and I agree. However, we didn't so we had to just deal with what we had available.
 
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