APA Needs to STOP Re-Ranking Players During Touraments

JessEm · Aug 20, 2019

JUST STOP. You've had plenty of opportunity to rank players BEFORE the tournament started. If someone isn't properly ranked, that's on the Div Reps and LO... DO YOUR JOBS! ... Sandbagging will apparently happen REGARDLESS, no matter WHAT YOU DO! Quit penalizing players because your system SUCKS, and you're just plain lazy!!

For starters, both teams turn in scoresheets. If Team-A's inning count has a large discrepancy, it might be a sign. FIND OUT WHY! Send out the sniffers. Watch the players in question. Pay particular attention to their scores for a bit. And God forbid you have to get off your asterick and go watch a match!

Quick background on this. Our LO asked if we could take a teams spot in a regional qualifier held on Saturday OVER MEMORIAL WEEKEND (end of May). The team we replaced was already qualified so they bailed. It was exactly 1 week before the tournament. People already had plans, but we scrambled and managed to field 5 players, including one who would've received triple-time at work that day. Everyone else was out of town... After our first match, the LO arbitrarily ranked-up 2 players. Both players have established histories, and a solid baseline for their current SL. Regardless, BOOOM. First match of the morning under our belts, and we're DONE. Everyone was extremely unhappy... The LO blamed "the computer" for the ranks, then pointed the finger at one of our other lower-level players, because he wasn't present.... Nevermind that he wasn't even in the state at the time... In summary, we pulled it together for a holiday weekend within a weeks notice, then proceeded directly to get screwed for our efforts.

BeiberLvr · Aug 20, 2019

dang I feel ya brother

onne time when I was visiting my uncle in new york i was stopped over at the local hall when jayson shaw himself walked in the door and started practiciing he saw my stroke and said it looked good probably just talking me up to hustle me and i said no thanks i don't gamble

he kept talking to me and said we should play race for 2000 for funsies i was like what the heck this guy don't step he sure is perstistent

finally i said fine i will play but only if you give me the last 5 and the breks. big truck was there and said hed stream it fine whatever i don't mind if the world sees me get my butt kicked by mr shaw so we play and it comes down to the last game and i get lucky shape on my money ball and make it

then he said good shootin kid lets flip it and double the bet but i said nope i knew he was laying down for a bigger bet anyways my lo saw the match and when i got back from vacation he said you re getting raised to a 5 wth man he dont even understand that shaw was laying down and thats only reason i beat him plus i got last5 and the breaks

FeelDaShot · Aug 20, 2019

JessEm said:
JUST STOP. You've had plenty of opportunity to rank players BEFORE the tournament started. If someone isn't properly ranked, it should be on the Div Reps and LO. ...DO YOUR JOBS! ...Sandbagging will apparently happen REGARDLESS, no matter WHAT YOY DO! Quit penalizing players because your system SUCKS, and you're just plain lazy!!

Quick background on this. Our LO asked if we could take a teams spot in a regional qualifier that was to take place on SATURDAY OVER MEMORIAL WEEKEND (end of May). The team we replaced was already qualified and had bailed... This was exactly 1 week before the tournament. People had plans... But we scrambled, and managed to field 5 players. Including one who would've been receiving triple-time at work that day... Everyone else was out of town... After our first match, the LO arbitrarily ranks up 2 players. Both players had a well established history and baseline for their current SL... Regardless, BOOOM. Just like that, first match of the morning under our belts, and we're DONE. Everyone was extremely unhappy... The LO accused "the computer" for the ranks, then pointed the finger for our situation at one of our other lower-level players who wasn't present... He was in a different state... We had one week notice prior to a big holiday weekend...

I agree. I have idea that might work: If the tournament directors in Vegas determine that a team is sandbagging, they let the team continue and whatever prize money they win must be paid directly by the local League Operator. This way, the League Operators will do their best to detect sandbagging prior to the tournament.

Celophanewrap · Aug 20, 2019

I can't imagine why it would be any responsibility of the division Reps, aren't they just players just like you?
I think it should be on the players who report the the stats. The problem is that they can't
all be trusted . It's just human nature, many people want to gain a competitive edge and
fudging a score sheet is the only way.
On the LO's? Maybe to a point, but they can only rely on what you tell them, they only have
that information to work with, so, what are they supposed to do?
It seems to me that the best time to get an accurate skill level for most people is during a tournament.
There's money or positioning on the line so much of the reporting will be hyper accurate and a random
sampling will help to confirm that.
.... and as for you player that missed Triple time and a half at work, he should probably better establish
his priorities. I imagine that he was in a good enough financial position to miss that pay day, if he wasn't
then that's on him.
and if the LO didn't promise you guys payment or a tournament win you are really misplacing your blame,
sometimes you win, and sometimes you don't. As a pool player I'm sure you know that. You guys could
have always said 'no'. Who's really at fault here?

jason · Aug 20, 2019

JessEm said:
JUST STOP. You've had plenty of opportunity to rank players BEFORE the tournament started. If someone isn't properly ranked, it should be on the Div Reps and LO. ...DO YOUR JOBS! ...Sandbagging will apparently happen REGARDLESS, no matter WHAT YOY DO! Quit penalizing players because your system SUCKS, and you're just plain lazy!!

Quick background on this. Our LO asked if we could take a teams spot in a regional qualifier that was to take place on SATURDAY OVER MEMORIAL WEEKEND (end of May). The team we replaced was already qualified and had bailed... This was exactly 1 week before the tournament. People had plans... But we scrambled, and managed to field 5 players. Including one who would've been receiving triple-time at work that day... Everyone else was out of town... After our first match, the LO arbitrarily ranks up 2 players. Both players had a well established history and baseline for their current SL... Regardless, BOOOM. Just like that, first match of the morning under our belts, and we're DONE. Everyone was extremely unhappy... The LO accused "the computer" for the ranks, then pointed the finger for our situation at one of our other lower-level players who wasn't present... He was in a different state... We had one week notice prior to a big holiday weekend...

Sorry to hear that, but not surprised. I quit the APA over 20 years ago. Nothing has changed. The money machine's "equalizer system" can't prevent sandbagging and never will be able to.

JessEm · Aug 20, 2019

Celophanewrap said:
I can't imagine why it would be any responsibility of the division Reps, aren't they just players just like you?
I think it should be on the players who report the the stats. The problem is that they can't
all be trusted . It's just human nature, many people want to gain a competitive edge and
fudging a score sheet is the only way.
On the LO's? Maybe to a point, but they can only rely on what you tell them, they only have
that information to work with, so, what are they supposed to do?
It seems to me that the best time to get an accurate skill level for most people is during a tournament.
There's money or positioning on the line so much of the reporting will be hyper accurate and a random
sampling will help to confirm that.
.... and as for you player that missed Triple time and a half at work, he should probably better establish
his priorities. I imagine that he was in a good enough financial position to miss that pay day, if he wasn't
then that's on him.
and if the LO didn't promise you guys payment or a tournament win you are really misplacing your blame,
sometimes you win, and sometimes you don't. As a pool player I'm sure you know that. You guys could
have always said 'no'. Who's really at fault here?

Is that a rhetorical question? THE APA IS AT FAULT. It's THEIR system...

Most of your post is the same "APA apologist" stuff you posted in the other thread today...

I DO AGREE that tournaments are ALSO a good way to see players, but adjust their RANK if necessary AFTER the tournament. Simple.

Celophanewrap · Aug 20, 2019

JessEm said:
Is that a rhetorical question? THE APA IS AT FAULT. It's THEIR system...

Most of your post is the same "APA apologist" stuff you posted in the other thread today...

I DO AGREE that tournaments are ALSO a good way to see players, but adjust their RANK if necessary AFTER the tournament. Simple.

APA apologist, LOL, that's rich...

Why? What if you're the one cheating? How would you correct that in a tournament?
Yes, it's their system, and it would work fine if people like you just took it upon themselves to do the right thing,
stop whining about it, and act like adults. What? You can't play unless you have an edge?
You know, it seems to me that you wouldn't be complaining if all this hadn't hit so close to home.
sandbag much?

Here's a thought, maybe the APA just isn't for you. Perhaps you're far to advanced a player and need to
play in a more competitive situation.
But still, I have to keep wondering why you just didn't say 'no'. I doubt that anyone was holding a gun to your head.
It probably sounded like an easy win, maybe an easy pay day?
You know what's funny, every year at that APA event I see teams that walk in there thinking they're just gonna walk
right through it and claim the cash at the end, and they crap out in the first round or two, like you all did.
Then they go around blaming everyone but themselves: The table, the felt, the lights, the chalk, the carpet, the noise,
the ref, the director, wah, wah, wah,... this is well covered territory and I've (we all) have heard it all before -
Some group of wann-be's thinking they're all that and then get mad and blame everything else when they can't hang

JessEm · Aug 20, 2019

Celophanewrap said:
APA apologist, LOL, that's rich...

Why? What if you're cheating? How would you correct that in a tournament?
Yes, it's their system, and it would work fine if people like you just took it upon themselves to do the right thing,
stop whining about it, and act like adults. You can't play unless you have an edge?
You know, it seems to me that you wouldn't be complaining if all this hadn't hit so close to home.
sandbag much?

Yes. My whole team complained. One division rep basically quit over this. We must all be sandbaggers...

Do you even read the posts anymore, before you jump to defend the APA??

Celophanewrap · Aug 20, 2019

JessEm said:
Yes. My whole team complained. One division rep basically quit over this. We must all be sandbaggers...

Do you even read the posts anymore, before you jump to defend the APA??

I do, in fact I read your whole post. I think you're pathetic and I feel really bad for you.
It must have been painful to find out you all could be beat
Who was the Rep that quit? I'd like to speak with your LO

KissedOut · Aug 20, 2019

I think sandbagging is like farts.

He who smelt it, dealt it.

DelawareDogs · Aug 20, 2019

Celophanewrap said:
I do, in fact I read your whole post. I think you're pathetic and I feel really bad for you.
It must have been painful to find out you all could be beat
Who was the Rep that quit? I'd like to speak with your LO

Do you work closely with the APA??

That would put so much into context for us.

Celophanewrap · Aug 20, 2019

DelawareDogs said:
Do you work closely with the APA??

That would put so much into context for us.

Nope, just a player

I've just taken time to do a little research. I've talked to all sorts of people that are players,
ex players, pros that are involved with the APA, people that refuse to play in the APA and
I've read some of the law suits (the one II could get my hands on), just a bunch of stuff,
you know what I found out? That the APA, like anything else, when used as intended is
fine. You follow the rules, you don't try to cheat, it can go really well and you can have fun.
Too many players worry too much about other people. If everyone just took care of their own
house I think it would go fine for everyone. Unfortunately, that's just not in many people's nature

JessEm · Aug 20, 2019

Celophanewrap said:
Here's a thought, maybe the APA just isn't for you. Perhaps you're far to advanced a player and need to
play in a more competitive situation.

Since you edited your post again...

Here's a thought, maybe the APA IS for me, and I'd just like to see it get better? Ya know, address one the issues they're constantly having?

And no, I'm not too far advanced. You obviously don't know anything about me. Nice try again, though.

I'm small fry, but the problem we ran into on Memorial weekend is one that plays out fairly regularly, in just my area alone... However, what just happened in Vegas, before the finals, it a black spot on the APA as a whole.

Celophanewrap · Aug 20, 2019

JessEm said:
Since you edited your post again...

Here's a thought, maybe the APA IS for me, and I'd just like to see it get better? Ya know, address one the issues they're constantly having?

And no, I'm not too far advanced. You obviously don't know anything about me. Nice try again, though.

I'm small fry, but the problem we ran into on Memorial weekend is one that plays out fairly regularly, in just my area alone... However, what just happened in Vegas, before the finals, it a black spot on the APA as a whole.

Then we will just have to disagree, but you whine like a mule, you know - you are still alive
Not that you asked what I think but I'll tell you anyway, I believe the APA thinks the
problem is yours, not their's. They don't have issues, you do.
You don't like their system, but it's their system and they think it's fine. You may have
issues with your LO, maybe you should address them with the LO. I believe that the
APA, as a whole, believes they don't have a problem, but you obviously do.
Their numbers are increasing, their profits are increasing, whats the problem?

...and I did edit my post, several times. Good that you were paying attention

I don't suppose I know anything about you, but some things are becoming obviously apparent

JessEm · Aug 20, 2019

Celophanewrap said:
Then we will just have to disagree, but you whine like a mule, you know - you are still alive
Not that you asked what I think but I'll tell you anyway, I believe the APA thinks the
problem is yours, not their's. They don't have issues, you do.
You don't like their system, but it's their system and they think it's fine. You may have
issues with your LO, maybe you should address them with the LO. I believe that the
APA, as a whole, believes they don't have a problem, but you obviously do.
Their numbers are increasing, their profits are increasing, whats the problem?

...and I did edit my post, several times. Good that you were paying attention

Keep trying to deflect it back on me. Newsflash for you though, I don't think it's working. Your insults and snap judgements here say a whole lot more about YOU. People are perpetually leaving the APA over this. Have a nice day.

Celophanewrap · Aug 20, 2019

JessEm said:
Keep trying to deflect it back on me. Newsflash for you though, I don't think it's working. Your insults and snap judgements here say a whole lot more about YOU. People are perpetually leaving the APA over this. Have a nice day.

Yes people are perpetually leaving the APA, and they are summarily replaced. However,
I doubt that may outside of your area are leaving for your issue, take you for instance -
you don't seem to be leaving. According to you even your division rep quit for you, and
in your haste to illustrate how bad your situation is you decided to stay and play, in support
of your league Rep, I guess?
So let me ask you - if this truly something you and your team feel that strongly about,
it's obviously not going to change, why don't you quit? There are other leagues, other
tournaments and such that would probably serve your needs quite well. You'd be totally
justified in quitting, so why not?

JessEm · Aug 20, 2019

Celophanewrap said:
Yes people are perpetually leaving the APA, and they are summarily replaced. However,
I doubt that may outside of your area are leaving for your issue, take you for instance -
you don't seem to be leaving. According to you even your division rep quit for you, and
in your haste to illustrate how bad your situation is you decided to stay and play, in support
of your league Rep, I guess?
So let me ask you - if this truly something you and your team feel that strongly about,
it's obviously not going to change, why don't you quit? There are other leagues, other
tournaments and such that would probably serve your needs quite well. You'd be totally
justified in quitting, so why not?

The proverbial jury is still out on what I do. But when I do make a decision, I can assure you I won't need to justify it here... Some of my team has plans to leave in the fall, or has already left. The same can be said for other teams in our league... As for me, I've decided to stick it out and see if it's salvageable come fall.

jokrswylde · Aug 20, 2019

I am an apa team captain. Have a lot of fun, love the camaraderie, and more important love to compete...both against myself and against my opponent.

I 100% agree with you though. I hate that they change skill levels in the middle of a tourney.

It bit me in LTC's one year...had a 4 get bumped up to a 5 overnight...couldn't meet the 23 cap limit and had to forfeit a match each round.

I learned a lesson and told my guys to sandbag! Just kidding. I did recruit a couple of new sl 2's though! They are both now solid 3's and loving pool.

Celophanewrap · Aug 20, 2019

JessEm said:
The proverbial jury is still out on what I do. But when I do make a decision, I can assure you I won't need to justify it here... Some of my team has plans to leave in the fall, or has already left. The same can be said for other teams in our league... As for me, I've decided to stick it out and see if it's salvageable come fall.

Well, best of luck in whatever you decide to do

mkmartin74 · Aug 20, 2019

Why wouldn't they give the runner up qualifying team the opportunity to go instead of having a unproven team to Vegas?

APA Needs to STOP Re-Ranking Players During Touraments

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