Pros and cons of believing in talent or hard work

My belief one way or the other about the relative importance of talent versus hard work in being successful at pool, or at anything else in life for that matter, has no effect on my level of motivation to succeed. Nor should it.

Since we're talking about a factual matter (i.e., what the relative importance of talent versus hard work is in determining success at pool), your believing one way or the other doesn't change whatever the facts are. When you recognize this, you realize that what you believe about it should have no bearing on how motivated or unmotivated you are to succeed, since whatever the facts are, your beliefs about them will not change them.

Tin Man said:

The debate over hard work and talent has been rehashed many times. It will never be resolved and people will land on different sides of the fence. In my opinion there are two more important questions to be asked:

How does the belief talent is required to make it to the top help your pool journey?

How does belief that hard work will take you to the top help your pool journey?

In my opinion belief in talent can be demotivating. When things aren't coming together it's too easy to say "Well, I guess I just don't have it, why bother". When you believe that hard work will get you anywhere you want to go, when things get tough the answer is always the same: Keep Going.

Why would anyone choose to believe something that makes it harder to achieve their goals? I seriously don't understand. What is the benefit of believing in talent? I suppose if you're looking for excuses for failing to achieve your goals then it's a good one. Maybe you can sit around the bar and talk about how you could've been a contender. But every champion out there believes they are 100% accountable for their pool destiny. Every one.

You can either soften the blow of failure or turn your dreams into reality.

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Hard work!

PoolBum said:

My belief one way or the other about the relative importance of talent versus hard work in being successful at pool, or at anything else in life for that matter, has no effect on my level of motivation to succeed. Nor should it.

Since we're talking about a factual matter (i.e., what the relative importance of talent versus hard work is in determining success at pool), your believing one way or the other doesn't change whatever the facts are. When you recognize this, you realize that what you believe about it should have no bearing on how motivated or unmotivated you are to succeed, since whatever the facts are, your beliefs about them will not change them.

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Well, this is a much better stated response to the original question than my following response.

I’ve always been told I have talent, by many including Jerry Briesath. But, I wanted to make real money, so I sold out and went corporate. They informed me (rightfully so) that I needed to make a decision. So, I did. But pool was always in my heart.

So, getting ready to retire, new 9 foot Diamond Labor Day weekend, but I’ll never be THAT good. Will always be able to beat most, but not the best. Looking forward to re-discovering my stroke.

I think you have to define and quantify the word "talent".

In the fine arts, it's the end product and its reception. IOW "the vibe people get".

In sports, truthfully I can't tell. "Kicks more ass?" "Better hamstrings?"

Best guess I have is telepathy. The talent I suppose would be its judicious and masterful application. Hey, this is consistent with the mental theory too! Yeah. Nailed it...

:thumbup:

oh yeah, [I THINK]

Tin Man said:

I understand the point you are trying to make. I just don't agree.

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You'll have to be more specific about what point you disagree with.

Tin Man said:

If someone believes they don't have the talent to achieve their goals, they aren't going to be motivated to put in work to hit them. If you want to be extremely analytical about it you could take the emotion out and use logic only. Why would you put in work to reach a goal you don't believe could be reached? Illogical. Hence, you would abort your efforts. Call it demotivation, call it deductive reasoning, whatever works for you.

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If you are claiming that every time someone has a goal they think is unrealistic relative to their actual chances of achieving the goal, that they are going to give up, that seems patently false to me. I’ve known many pool players, for example, who have played in tournaments like the U.S. Open, and believed they had practically a 0% chance of winning it. Did that mean they did not have the goal of winning it? No. Did that mean that they did not put in a great deal of effort in preparing for the tournament? No. There are times, in fact, when I think people are motivated to work even harder precisely because they don't think their talent alone will get them there.

Tin Man said:

Edit: Also, maybe they aren't so factual. Maybe talent does limit people that believe in it. Placebo and what not. You can't tell me that beliefs can't change reality.

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You will have to be more specific about what beliefs you are talking about.

Talent can only take you so far, and potentially fast track moderate results. However without hard work that's the end of that journey. Common to see those with "talent" remain clueless on how to play.

Hard work won't give you talent, but you can learn to climb over any hurdles those with talent walk around.

The results of hard work can appear to be natural talent. However it's always obvious to me when I see those with talent and that have not put in the work.

My only talent is perseverance....lol

Tin Man said:

I understand the point you are trying to make. I just don't agree.

If someone believes they don't have the talent to achieve their goals, they aren't going to be motivated to put in work to hit them. If you want to be extremely analytical about it you could take the emotion out and use logic only. Why would you put in work to reach a goal you don't believe could be reached? Illogical. Hence, you would abort your efforts. Call it demotivation, call it deductive reasoning, whatever works for you.

Edit: Also, maybe they aren't so factual. Maybe talent does limit people that believe in it. Placebo and what not. You can't tell me that beliefs can't change reality.

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Still, there exist limits to what most of us can achieve, no matter how hard we work, or how badly we want it. I’m 62 years old, 5’9” and have a 9” vertical jump. I can barely palm a tennis ball. No matter how badly I want it, even if I worked every waking moment with the best coaches in the world, I’m not going to play in the NBA. All the “belief” in the world can’t change that.

Like it or not, limits exist, though they vary from individual to individual.

Tin Man said:

Again I ask...how does believing in limitations of talent help you? Forget the debate about if it's real. How does it help? Can anyone give me a benefit? The only one I've heard is "If you believe you don't have it you'll work harder", which is an argument for hard work!

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reading the other thread, I was thinking this
genetics/"talent" is a real trip
I've been reading about kinesthetics lately
what's conscious and unconscious
how nature is expressed, or not
and how practice can reveal/develop

I don't think there's anything wrong
with being aware of oneself, in many ways
we all have so much in common
but in just a bit of dna
there is so much cool diversity
acknowledge that, get to know that
but live as if so much is possible
because so much is

Tin Man said:

Fast forward a number of years and my mental game and cue ball and patterns are so strong I can play high level pool. And those who watch me say I have a 'talent' because it's almost like I get ball in hand on every shot. Little do they know that talent only developed because of a lack of talent elsewhere in the game and a ton of hard work. So maybe my weaknesses were a blessing in disguise. And now I've closed the gap in those other areas and am playing super strong.

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Bingo... Exactly what I was trying to say earlier.

I'll argue the notion that you developed talent though. You can't develop talent. You can only learn to emulate it.

The_JV said:

Talent can only take you so far, and potentially fast track moderate results. However without hard work that's the end of that journey. Common to see those with "talent" remain clueless on how to play.

Hard work won't give you talent, but you can learn to climb over any hurdles those with talent walk around.

The results of hard work can appear to be natural talent. However it's always obvious to me when I see those with talent and that have not put in the work.

My only talent is perseverance....lol

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great statement
sent you a greenie

i agree if you believe in hard work and perseverance will let you be the best you can be
you will never give up and keep working to improve.
and if you practice correctly and put in the time and maybe have a mentor
your skills can get to be such to allow you to reach a very high level
but i dont think you can deny there is an "it" factor
mosconi had "it"
efren had "it"
there is a reason certain players reach a level noone else seems to be able to achieve
they have "it"..natural talent
and they put in the work
so i think you shouldnt believe in talent as an excuse since its not productive
but believe in hard work to succeed and be the best you can be
but i think deep down how good the best you can be will ultimately be limited to your talent
you cant make silk out of a pigs ear
but you can make great bacon.....
jmho

Just pure talent without putting in hard work will get you never near excellence.

NO matter about what we re speaking- any kind of sport.

As The_JV showed it up: With a kind of talent you ll get a bit faster modereate or good results-- but at some point just willing, hard work and desire will bring you to the next level.
blood and tears also

Tinman, I like how you think. At the start of the thread I wasn’t buying it. But after your post about your natural talent, and the hard work you had to put in to be seen as “talented “ I might be coming around.

Good post, it got me thinking!

Sorry this is so long, but some subjects need more than a few words.

Tin Man, I am with you on this. Our beliefs and thoughts shape and define our lives in every manner, from learning and mastering complex skills to building personality traits and defining our character. And there's plenty of scientific research to prove it.

However, genetically, we are not all equal. Just as some people are born more intelligent than others, some are also born genetically predisposed or hardwired more advantageously when it comes to learning or developing certain skills. But this doesn't mean they'll automatically be more successful than someone not born with genetic advantages. They still have to work and develop their skills. It'll just be a little easier for them than what it is for others. But there's a pitfall also...

It's common for gifted/talented kids to fail or not rise to their true potential. Despite any genetic advantages, their own thoughts, beliefs, and emotions influence and shape their development. In other words, how they think and feel can make a huge difference.

For example, if a kid is continually told that he or she is a "natural", that they were born to be better than everyone else at whatever it is (be it pool, tennis, golf, chess, math, etc...), there is a damaging feedback loop that occurs quite often. Praise triggers an emotional response that feels good. And the kid can develop the habit of wanting that feel good emotion all the time. Then one day they don't compete or perform as well, some other kid outshines them, and the praise doesn't come and the feel good emotion isn't triggered. The kid thinks, "I am not better than everyone else. I am not a natural!" So he begins avoiding anything that he believes might be too difficult, things that won't bring praise. He avoids competing with anyone he thinks might perform better, because then he won't get the praise that he wants. Other kids, even those who were born without genetic advantages, get better and better over time, while this naturally gifted kid remains average or quits that particular sport or activity all together.

Here's the kicker.... If that kid's parents would've said things like, "You are good at this because you work hard and study at it", the kid would've associated hard work and study with praise. Instead, he associated his "natural talent" with praise, because that's what he was used to hearing, and so that's what he believed. Meanwhile, kids that were putting in the hard work caught up and surpassed him. And the kid's belief that he was born better than everyone else is what ended up holding him back.

Great post Brian