Revo deflection...curious

DannySul450

New member
I'm no expert about deflection but it's been my experience that tips have a big impact on how much spin I put on the cueball and I would think this would impact defelection. In my opinion carbon shafts seem to transfer energy better thus increase the spin. When comparing a wood shaft that has a tip on it that has been used or a different tip this can be the difference. To do a real comparison test you would need to have the same type tips installed on both shafts at the same thickness/height and new for both then try and determine which shaft deflects less.
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
...carbon shafts seem to transfer energy better thus increase the spin.
Just like hitting slightly harder. But that also increases CB speed, so the spin-to-speed ratio is the same as before, and so the spin's effect (angle change off the rail) is the same too. You have to hit farther from center to increase the spin-to-speed ratio.

I think higher energy transfer is a good thing, just for other reasons.

pj
chgo
 

oneballeddie

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Lol

I nominate this for most unintelligible thread of the decade. Narrow means less deflection, deflection is in the shaft, high means low, 12.5 revo, ... What next- Palestine is part of Israel?
 

jtompilot

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
So I just got a 12.4 Revo, Radial pin, up and running. I've been playing with a 3/8-10 joint with a 4" mid extension, into a 314-3. I took my 314-3 down a little bit to about 12.6mm. It seems to have super low deflection. Now using the Revo (with an identical mid extension in every way except a Radial pin on the male end), I seem to get significantly more deflection with the Revo. It is not a small difference. I love the way the Revo hits and plays, but am a bit disappoint that I will now have to adjust to way more deflection.

Anyone have any thoughts or personal experiences with this? I was under the impression that the Revo would have well less deflection than a 314-3, even one a bit smaller diameter.

Thanks,

KMRUNOUT




Sent from my iPhone using AzBilliards Forums

I played with my 314-3 for about an hour. It definitely squirts more than my 12.4 Revo. Both are radial pin
 

WilleeCue

The Barefoot Cuemaker
Silver Member
I really wish we had robotic testing for these things. At ~$500, I'd really like to know exactly what I'm getting BEFORE paying the price of admission.

Just as a tangentially-related note, I did hit several spin shots with the Jacoby CF shaft at derby, and the deflection I was seeing seemed identical, near as I could tell, to my z3 that I play with normally.

The price would be $1000 if they thought they could get away with that.
Its all smoke and mirrors, hype and advertising ... just like all the other cues and shafts on the market today.
The difference needs to be measured on lab equipment.
Kinda like buying a $5000 stereo amplifier ... or a $10,000 turntable ... you buy the name cause you cant really hear any difference.
Most players will get no benefit from a lower deflection cue ... why?
They dont have a good enough stroke to take advantage of any improvement in deflection.
But hey ... if you got the money and like the cue ... go for it!
 

Rimfirejunkie

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The price would be $1000 if they thought they could get away with that.
Its all smoke and mirrors, hype and advertising ... just like all the other cues and shafts on the market today.
The difference needs to be measured on lab equipment.
Kinda like buying a $5000 stereo amplifier ... or a $10,000 turntable ... you buy the name cause you cant really hear any difference.
Most players will get no benefit from a lower deflection cue ... why?
They dont have a good enough stroke to take advantage of any improvement in deflection.
But hey ... if you got the money and like the cue ... go for it!


Can’t hear the difference? Maybe you can’t.
 

Seth C.

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I really wish we had robotic testing for these things. At ~$500, I'd really like to know exactly what I'm getting BEFORE paying the price of admission.

I find it interesting that although Predator’s website includes a chart comparing the following characteristics of its various “Low Deflection” shafts - “Accuracy at High Speeds, Accuracy at Low Speeds, Spin at High Speeds, Spin at Low Speeds, Static Stiffness, Energy Transfer, Hit Firmness, Hit Comfort & Feedback, Radial Consistency, and Longevity” - Predator offers no comparative information, objective or subjective, about relative deflection.
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
I find it interesting that although Predator’s website includes a chart comparing the following characteristics of its various “Low Deflection” shafts - “Accuracy at High Speeds, Accuracy at Low Speeds, Spin at High Speeds, Spin at Low Speeds, Static Stiffness, Energy Transfer, Hit Firmness, Hit Comfort & Feedback, Radial Consistency, and Longevity” - Predator offers no comparative information, objective or subjective, about relative deflection.

What does “accuracy” refer to?

pj
chgo
 

CocoboloCowboy

Cowboys are my hero's
Silver Member
Maybe I am too blunt, but Carbon Fibre is not going to turn a "C" Player into a Pro over night, if you think so, then your buying the latest hype from someone trying, or hoping to sell you a magic wand.

I remember the stuff you could get from Kellogg's in the 1950's by writing away to Battle Creek, MI. Send 25 CENT, and a Box Top or Two. Most of the item were a big disappointment. The commercials look just too cool.

Last question is how many Pros playing with the latest greatest bought it, or were they given it, and money to play with it?
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
I find it interesting that although Predator’s website includes a chart comparing the following characteristics of its various “Low Deflection” shafts - “Accuracy at High Speeds, Accuracy at Low Speeds, Spin at High Speeds, Spin at Low Speeds, Static Stiffness, Energy Transfer, Hit Firmness, Hit Comfort & Feedback, Radial Consistency, and Longevity” - Predator offers no comparative information, objective or subjective, about relative deflection.

What does “accuracy” refer to?

pj
chgo

Who knows? “Hit Comfort & Feedback” is another head scratcher.
Yeah, but since the only thing about a stick that affects its "accuracy" is CB deflection, that's likely what you asked about.

pj
chgo
 

Seth C.

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Yeah, but since the only thing about a stick that affects its "accuracy" is CB deflection, that's likely what you asked about.

pj
chgo

I didn’t actually ask about anything, but that aside, I suppose that Predator could be using the word “accuracy” to refer to the amount of deflection produced by each shaft. Before jumping to that conclusion, however, I think one has to consider the possibility that it was intended to mean something else - perhaps the consistency of CB travel (after being hit with the same amount of English, at the same speed) over a series of test shots. Perhaps it was intended to mean both the amount of deflection and the consistency of CB travel. Or something else. Maybe it is just a marketing claim that has no valid data behind it and therefore has no real meaning.

Speculation about what “accuracy” was intended to mean is complicated by the fact that for all but the 314 shaft, there is a claimed correlation between “accuracy” and “spin at high speed” and “spin at low speed.” For the 314, that same claimed correlation is not present - at either high speed or low speed.

Also, the graphical presentation suggests that the properties of the Revo shaft are the same for the 12.4 and 12.9 models, even though the narrative states that the two models have different tapers. And, while I have not played with either of them, let alone both of them, a number of posters have weighed in to say that the deflection produced by the two models is discernibly, if not markedly, different.

Finally, a point of ignorance and therefore question on my part: Does it make sense that a shaft that produces less deflection than another shaft would also produce more spin than the other shaft (assuming the same tip type, condition, and placement, and the same speed of stroke, using the same cue butt, etc., etc. - i.e., with normalization of all other factors)? This is what Predator claims about the Revo shaft.
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
Does it make sense that a shaft that produces less deflection than another shaft would also produce more spin than the other shaft (assuming the same tip type, condition, and placement, and the same speed of stroke, using the same cue butt, etc., etc. - i.e., with normalization of all other factors)? This is what Predator claims about the Revo shaft.
The Revo may transmit more energy to the CB with the same speed stroke (I assume that's what they mean) - but that's the same as simply hitting a little harder. It doesn't produce more spin-to-speed, which is what's needed for more spin effect (angle change off a rail).

And that's unrelated to less CB deflection (squirt).

pj
chgo
 

Seth C.

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The Revo may transmit more energy to the CB with the same speed stroke (I assume that's what they mean) - but that's the same as simply hitting a little harder. It doesn't produce more spin-to-speed, which is what's needed for more spin effect (angle change off a rail).

And that's unrelated to less CB deflection (squirt).

pj
chgo

But are they unrelated? If you assume for sake of discussion that the Revo shaft produces zero CB deflection, then wouldn’t 100% of the effect of hitting to the side of center be the imparting of spin, whereas, with some other shaft (that causes some amount of CB deflection), part of the effect of hitting to the side of center would be to shove the CB off line, and the other part of the effect would be to the impart spin? If so, then it would seem that less English would be necessary with the Revo than with the other shaft in order to produce the desired amount of spin on the CB when it contacts the rail post-collision. Meaning that the player using the Revo could place the cue tip closer to center than the player using the other shaft, and yet produce the same, desired amount of spin. Obviously the Revo does not produce zero deflection, but the principle should be the same as long as it produces less deflection than the other shaft.

So, I’m thinking (maybe correctly, maybe incorrectly) that the answer to my own question is that yes, it does make sense that a shaft that produces less deflection would also produce more spin.
 

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
I found the 12.4 Revo pivot length to be very close to the same as my Z2.
Dave,

It's easy to measure with a 25' tape.

Chris
”Natural pivot length” is useful for objectively comparing different shafts, but it really isn’t that important in typical play (except for a break cue) since net CB deflection (the combined effects of squirt and swerve) varies so much with shot speed, shot distance, and conditions. For more info, see:

cue natural pivot length

and

aim compensation when using sidespin

With my System for Aiming With Sidespin (SAWS), one can aim effectively with any cue and any bridge length.

Regards,
Dave
 
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