526 and John Schmidt

Thomas Engert could do it, too... as he ran 491 last year or so...also Thorsten Hohmann could. Someday it will happen though

I kind of doubt it. First off, no one plays THAT much 14.1 anymore. I would think realistically, you would have 25 or so 300s before you get to 500. And this has to be verified, correct? So what top pro is going to take enough time off to really go after it? Not many pros can afford that financially, I wouldn't think. Also, a good number of pros have shimmed tables either in their home, or wherever they usually practice. This makes 500 unreachable, imo. Even John has talked about the difficulty of running 150 on tourney diamonds, and most events don't even use shimmed tables. I would love to see the record broke, but with 14.1 being on the life support as it is(in most of the US, at least), and the more difficult equipment, I doubt it.

I have said this before - I will pay $1000 to the first person that breaks Mosconi's record on video.

There is no doubt in my mind that Schmidt or one of the top 14.1 players could break Mosconi's record if they had available a 4 x 8 with loose pockets.

Doc

I beleive it could be done on a loose pocket table, but i also agree with muttley it would be near impossible on the tourney diamonds or a shimmed table which everyone seems to play on these days.I would like to see it happen and there are definately a couple guys capable of doing it.

Klink said:

I will say this. I think if John Schmidt wants to break the record he will. I also think that with with all of this talk abut the record that there will be several people trying. I am going to root for the guy from Milton as this was close to my home, and i also think anyone like John thats from there would be like Boo and just kick ass in the next masconi cup. please replace Earl with John and we might even win!

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Mosconi did in front of a room full of witnesses during an exhibition. If someone was just to do it, how would the prove it? I.E. Mike Eufemia who most say did beat the record years ago with over 600.

Until someone beats it, and there are witnesses, Mosconi's 526 record remains intact. A lot of people seem to think that it would not be that hard to break this record. I happen to disagree with that assessment. There is a reason it has stood the test of time. Now over fifty years, it is one of the last great sports records from another era.

Many people have in fact played 14.1 during the last 50+ years and only Engert came close. It could happen this year and maybe it will last another 50 years. My hat is off to ANYONE who breaks this record. Just don't do it on your home table with a friend racking the balls. If it happens during an exhibition with many people watching, that's good enough for me.

There are quite a few highly skilled 14.1 players out there today, and several events they can compete in each year. They also have ample opportunities to play a game of 14.1 during any of their exhibition appearances. That is exactly how Willie achieved his record. All I can say to the aspiring players is...GO FOR IT! Nothing or no one is stopping you from making multiple attempts at this record.

jay helfert said:

Until someone beats it, and there are witnesses, Mosconi's 526 record remains intact. A lot of people seem to think that it would not be that hard to break this record. I happen to disagree with that assessment. There is a reason it has stood the test of time. Now over fifty years, it is one of the last great sports records from another era.

Many people have in fact played 14.1 during the last 50+ years and only Engert came close. It could happen this year and maybe it will last another 50 years. My hat is off to ANYONE who breaks this record. Just don't do it on your home table with a friend racking the balls. If it happens during an exhibition with many people watching, that's good enough for me.

There are quite a few highly skilled 14.1 players out there today, and several events they can compete in each year. They also have ample opportunities to play a game of 14.1 during any of their exhibition appearances. That is exactly how Willie achieved his record. All I can say to the aspiring players is...GO FOR IT! Nothing or no one is stopping you from making multiple attempts at this record.

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I saw Mosconi play maybe a 100 exhibitions, I was like a stalker and would drive to see him. He often would do like a dozen in one area afternoon and night. They almost always concluded with him playing a local champ a 150 point match. When he was on a run and ran out he always continued the run if it was over a 100 and often did 200 +. Contrary to what many people may think, this was not done on some set up table he carried around with him. He would just pick a table in the room usually based on where the most people could comfortably watch and play. He could run hundreds on good tables, bad tables, humidity, nothing seemed to make a difference. I am talking about the 60's when he was already past his prime. He ran balls at will, I can't believe the game can be played better then he played it. He also played so often in front of an audience he had a zillion opportunities to run balls. I don't know when someone today could do it. There aren't even any 14.1 tournaments. It would be interesting to know how many 250 or 300 ball runs Mosconi had that are long forgotten. I would bet they are in the hundreds. Lets face it, he was the best.

I had the dubious honor of being one of Willie's many victims. I write about it in Pool Wars. It was a humbling moment in my less than illustrious pool career.

I believe Engert's run of 491 was dong 15-20 years ago. Does someone know for sure when this happened?

sascha said:

Thomas Engert could do it, too... as he ran 491 last year or so...also Thorsten Hohmann could. Someday it will happen though

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sascha said:

Thomas Engert could do it, too... as he ran 491 last year or so...also Thorsten Hohmann could. Someday it will happen though

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It's funny how 526-491=35 which is higher then my best 14.1 run......Man I suck! :sorry:

jay helfert said:

I had the dubious honor of being one of Willie's many victims. I write about it in Pool Wars. It was a humbling moment in my less than illustrious pool career.

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I'll tell you a funny story. I saw Mosconi play a guy named Red Campbell in an exhibition 1962 maybe. Red was a really obnoxious guy and he could play. Red lost the lag and broke. Mosconi ran like 12 and missed a ball. Red gets out of the chair and says to Mosconi, "You can sit down now Mr. Mosconi it's my turn". Red was a real creep. Red runs like 40 something and misses. Mosconi gets up without a word and runs 138 and out. Mosconi did it with such intention and ease it was remarkable. I will just never forget the look on Mosconi's face as he went through the racks. He was a killer.

There is no doubt in my mind that Schmidt or one of the top 14.1 players could break Mosconi's record if they had available a 4 x 8 with loose pockets.

Doc

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Playing on a Mosconi era 4X8 table is not really the same as playing on a 4X8 table now. Today's tables have faster/better cloth, better cushions, and better balls. Chalk is (arguably) better, and playing conditions would probably be better. Also, at the top levels where shotmaking is a non-issue, playing on a 9' table is probably easier due to less congestion. In my opinion, for a proper comparison you really need 2 apples.

And I agree with Jay that if the 526 record was so easy to break, somebody in 55+ years would have done it. Not only has no one done it officially, I don't remember hearing a rumor that someone did it unofficially. And straight pool was very popular for many years until recently...

-td

I'm with Jay too

and td873, if it is so easy, let all of them try to break it. First off, many players would tire of making 100, 200, 300 ball runs and then missing. The record is not only a record of precision, but endurance as well.

I saw Mosconi in an exhibition in 68-69 in San Diego. The man was an absolute master in 14.1. He could run racks with ease, and had pinpoint
shape on all the shots. His ability to analyze almost full racks was amazing.
He was and still is 'The greatest straight Pool player of all time', not only for his record, but for all of his play over the years.

wait a minute.....

td873 said:

Playing on a Mosconi era 4X8 table is not really the same as playing on a 4X8 table now. Today's tables have faster/better cloth, better cushions, and better balls. Chalk is (arguably) better, and playing conditions would probably be better. Also, at the top levels where shotmaking is a non-issue, playing on a 9' table is probably easier due to less congestion. In my opinion, for a proper comparison you really need 2 apples.

And I agree with Jay that if the 526 record was so easy to break, somebody in 55+ years would have done it. Not only has no one done it officially, I don't remember hearing a rumor that someone did it unofficially. And straight pool was very popular for many years until recently...

-td

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I keep hearing how everything is made better today than it was in the past.

I have to say hold on a minute here on that one.

Would you say that crown moldings, furniture, etc... are better made now than they were then????

Just because they have advanced materials does NOT mean that they are better now. I'm sure mud balls today that are left over from then aren't in anywhere NEAR as good a shape as they were back then.

Craftsmen took better care in making sure things were made well in the past than they do today.

textiles haven't improved much and if anything have degraded. Did they not have worsted wool back then? was everything nap? I don't know. Does nap cloth mean automatically that it was more difficult to play. the majority of 14.1 shots are relatively close shots, does the nap cloth make that more difficult??

In 14.1, long runs often require pin point position play. I think it would be easier to finesse position play on a slower nap cloth than faster cloth where the balls tend to keep on running.

I just don't know if this argument that it was harder back then holds water.

I do think that position play is tighter on a smaller table like a 4x8. so I don't know if it was any easier for Mosconi to make his run on a 4x8 especially when they were more used to making big runs on a 10x5 where there is more room to negotiate.

Big runs like mosconi's and John's are very difficult to achieve and require long run focus that make them VERY impressive.

belittling John's capabilities don't get us anywhere and deifying Willie's don't really get us anywhere either. These are good discussions but let's get emotions out of it and concentrate on pool.

I hope that John or Thomas or Thorsten are able to break the record. I don't think that it would belittle willie's achievement but would rather solidify it.

Jaden

Given Engert's 491, I feel certain that 526+ is attainable, with Schmidt and Hohmann the most logical candidates to achieve this milestone.

sjm said:

Given Engert's 491, I feel certain that 526+ is attainable, with Schmidt and Hohmann the most logical candidates to achieve this milestone.

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I could easily imagine Harriman in the pack doing the same as he matures with 14/1.
JoeyA

Jaden said:

I keep hearing how everything is made better today than it was in the past.

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Apples and oranges. My point was that equipment plays differently due to technological improvements. Quality of workmanship is a non-issue. Put another way, the table can be hand carved, but still have simonis 860 and artemis cushions.

Would you say that crown moldings, furniture, etc... are better made now than they were then????

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Orange.

Just because they have advanced materials does NOT mean that they are better now.

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Orange.

I'm sure mud balls today that are left over from then aren't in anywhere NEAR as good a shape as they were back then.

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Orange.

Craftsmen took better care in making sure things were made well in the past than they do today.

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Orange.

textiles haven't improved much and if anything have degraded.

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Orange.

Does nap cloth mean automatically that it was more difficult to play. [...] the majority of 14.1 shots are relatively close shots, does the nap cloth make that more difficult??

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Yes. Didn't they use napped cloth for the IPT, and everyone thought it was "harder" to play on? That's what I remember - could be wrong though.

In 14.1, long runs often require pin point position play. I think it would be easier to finesse position play on a slower nap cloth than faster cloth where the balls tend to keep on running.

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This disproves your earlier points about (1) playing conditions being equal and quality/technology having no effect. That is, you acknolwedge that napped cloth is slower (and conversely, new cloth is faster). And, contrary to your thought about finesse being easier, slow cloth means you have to hit break shots that much harder, balls roll less distance (more clusters), and you have to have a better stroke to apply english to the cue ball.

I just don't know if this argument that it was harder back then holds water.

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It does. Same with golf, tennis, football, skating etc. Technology evolves to elevate the game. Not make it harder.

I do think that position play is tighter on a smaller table like a 4x8. so I don't know if it was any easier for Mosconi to make his run on a 4x8 especially when they were more used to making big runs on a 10x5 where there is more room to negotiate.

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You have this backwards. It is harder to play games using all 16 balls on a smaller table. That is, more balls per squar foot of table equals more congestion, more clusters, and harder position.

Big runs like mosconi's and John's are very difficult to achieve and require long run focus that make them VERY impressive.

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This I agree with.

belittling John's capabilities don't get us anywhere and deifying Willie's don't really get us anywhere either. These are good discussions but let's get emotions out of it and concentrate on pool.

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I'm not sure who belittled anyone. Your characterization may be out of place.

I hope that John or Thomas or Thorsten are able to break the record. I don't think that it would belittle willie's achievement but would rather solidify it.

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Solidify it how? I don't get this. Breaking Babe Ruth's homerun record didn't solidify it. It moved it to 2nd place.

-td