BCA Open team from TAIWAN disqualified?

watchez · May 30, 2012

cardiac kid said:
I played Dustin for 7/8. Couldn't understand why he seemed so angry to lose at that point in the event. I am more impressed to find he won the APA National 6/7 singles event in April for $10K. Guess I don't play so bad after all!

A quick history. I played on both teams you are referring to. Our team this year was formed with THREE players (who played every round) who did not participate on the 2010 Nationals team. Only Jim Moore and me participated. Dick Pickle is our sponsor, not a player. Our finish tied for 33rd doesn't seem to qualify as a great track record. The three new players each are league players and have a track record known to the BCAPL. As we play out of the Las Vegas Cue Club, we are under the very careful and watchful eye of Bill Stock. Remember, the Henderson CSI offices are only ten miles away. Don't want to make too much of your comment but there are way too many "teams" playing at the Nationals who slip under the radar. Wish we were one of them.

Lyn

If Dick Pickle was listed as a 'player' on both teams - and he is --- it doesn't matter if he was a sponsor or not. He was the third repeat player. If he wanted to sit there and root you on, so be it. And this is a virtual world now -- doesn't matter if Henderson is 10 miles away or 10,000 miles away. I doubt Bill Stock is showing up at the Cue Club to see what is going on at league night.

And I'll say this for the third time -- since you didn't digest it the first two times - this is what I view from a 10 minute look thru of the players/teams. Like jwilliams said, beyond not paying a few players this year, it all leads to a slippery slope.

cardiac kid · May 30, 2012

Mark Griffin said:
Lyn,

As Watchez stated, the only players that will probably be affected by this whole situation is the payers that got beat by th two players.

Sorry - that did not include you.

Congrats on your very high finish and graduation.

Mark Griffin

Mark,

Through my 18 or so years of participation in the BCA / BCAPL and ACS Nationals, there is one constant. I've never put one cent of my money into the one armed bandits or their table game equivalents. Don't consider myself to be lucky at gaming. Your decision only confirms my thoughts.

Just think, I played five (one bye) matches on the right side of the board. Once defeated, then played eleven matches on the left side. Never once playing either of the two disqualified individuals. Also did not play one single player who had played one of them before me and lost. Not one. Did have the good fortune to defeat several of todays great up and coming players during that run. Guess it is just my luck to be excluded. Quite honestly, I'm not happy about it. Oh well.

Lyn

watchez · May 30, 2012

Roadie said:
If memory serves me in recent years the British have also sent super teams that swept the open divisions. Open to correction of course.

Britain swept Master and Grand Master single titles. Mick Hill, Karl Boyles, Darren Appleton.

They got second in Men's Master Team.

cardiac kid · May 30, 2012

watchez said:
And this is a virtual world now -- doesn't matter if Henderson is 10 miles away or 10,000 miles away. I doubt Bill Stock is showing up at the Cue Club to see what is going on at league night.

Wouldn't care to make a major wager on that would you? We probably get more scrutiny than any other league in the entire system.

watchez said:
And I'll say this for the third time -- since you didn't digest it the first two times - this is what I view from a 10 minute look thru of the players/teams. Like jwilliams said, beyond not paying a few players this year, it all leads to a slippery slope.

The slope has been slippery for way too many years already. It appears what we have now will be all there is into the future. Not going to argue. Its all verbal masterbation anyway!

Lyn

Roadie · May 30, 2012

watchez said:
Britain swept Master and Grand Master single titles. Mick Hill, Karl Boyles, Darren Appleton.

They got second in Men's Master Team.

Thank you. Bad memory and too lazy too look it up.

dogginda9 · May 30, 2012

jwilliams said:
Up to this point, I've kept quiet on this and am patiently waiting for Mark Griffin's official response...

I would however ask that Mark think very carefully about the precedent he could possibly be setting here in regards to being able to deny players money after they had been confirmed that they were "ok" to compete in the open division and were then allowed to play in the event all the way to completion, only to then be told they would not be paid.

This is a very slippery slope to start down...

Very much agreed with this post.:thumbup:

watchez · May 30, 2012

cardiac kid said:
Wouldn't care to make a major wager on that would you? We probably get more scrutiny than any other league in the entire system.

Lyn

What is the BCAPL requirement for the same players not being allowed to be on the same team again for additional years? How high do you have to finish before that is not allowed?

stuckart · May 30, 2012

Mark Griffin said:
Lyn,

As Watchez stated, the only players that will probably be affected by this whole situation is the payers that got beat by th two players.

Sorry - that did not include you.

Congrats on your very high finish and graduation.

Mark Griffin

:frown: Only the 2 players, not the 3rd?

stuckart · May 30, 2012

watchez said:
What is the BCAPL requirement for the same players not being allowed to be on the same team again for additional years? How high do you have to finish before that is not allowed?

I don't believe that rule applies any longer. I think it went away with the creation of "Team Master" a few years ago, and then ultimately with the "Advanced" division.

The requirement now is just that you have 3 original players that qualified together on the same team in League (8+ weeks) and that 4 out of your 5 players must be "OPEN" status. No Masters or Grand Masters and you CAN have 1 "Advanced" player.

So a team of 5 players can stay together year after year as long as they fulfill the requirements.

I could be wrong, but I didn't see this clause in the rules any longer....

watchez · May 30, 2012

stuckart said:
I don't believe that rule applies any longer. I think it went away with the creation of "Team Master" a few years ago, and then ultimately with the "Advanced" division.

The requirement now is just that you have 3 original players that qualified together on the same team in League (8+ weeks) and that 4 out of your 5 players must be "OPEN" status. No Masters or Grand Masters and you CAN have 1 "Advanced" player.

So a team of 5 players can stay together year after year as long as they fulfill the requirements.

I could be wrong, but I didn't see this clause in the rules any longer....

Then I can't believe more teams that placed high in 2010 or prior haven't taken advantage of that change like the Las Vegas team did. I guess they will soon figure it out

cardiac kid · May 30, 2012

watchez said:
What is the BCAPL requirement for the same players not being allowed to be on the same team again for additional years? How high do you have to finish before that is not allowed?

THIS years requirement for an Open Team is two players from the original "weekly" team. Those two players MUST play every round. Only one player of the ten allowed rostered players may be an Advanced player. Those are the basic requirements.

As I have now "graduated" to the Masters as Mr. Griffin stated, I can no longer play with my team. The rest of the players on the team who did not "graduate" to a higher level can continue on and reform a new Mixed Open Team. Who knows what next years (2013) requirements will be. My plans are to try to form an Advanced Team from the league. One Master and up to three Advanced players. We'll see!

Lyn

Duane Tuula · May 30, 2012

If if's and buts were candy & nuts... you get the idea!

The tourney is over. They were allowed to compete & complete the tourney. Pay the men and move on. Make some new adjustments if needed.

This is not the first time a really, really strong player has competed in the open division and won. And there are still a group of simply really strong players that are eligible for the open division again next year.

akaTrigger · May 30, 2012

watchez said:
What is the BCAPL requirement for the same players not being allowed to be on the same team again for additional years? How high do you have to finish before that is not allowed?

There are no Team Masters anymore.

According to the BCA website:

If a team places:

Top 16 Men’s Mixed Open Team

Top 4 Women’s Open Team

Top 4% Men’s Mixed Advanced Teams

Then the players who finish as listed above in the Teams Divisions
will be moved to Advanced status. Players may petition to be lowered back to Open status based on their history in singles play or known ability.

A Bill Stock told me for my women's team that next year it cannot consist of more than TWO of the original team members because we placed in the top 4. I don't know what the ruling is for the guys team, b/c they can have 5 members play at a time (for the women's team it's only 4). I presume it's either 2 or 3.

cardiac kid · May 30, 2012

watchez said:
Then I can't believe more teams that placed high in 2010 or prior haven't taken advantage of that change like the Las Vegas team did. I guess they will soon figure it out

What makes you think they already haven't? How much of a factor is the draw? How would we have felt if the Tiawanese were allowed to play in the Mixed Open as entered? After watching them play in the Advanced Teams event, doubt if we would have beaten them!

I look at it the same way NASCAR crew chiefs do. They read the rules. They then interpret the rules and build a chassis to the rules. When the rule makers tell them the chassis and body parts don't meet their interpretation of the rules, they change the parts. Is it cheating? Is it just creativity? I've made this point for years. Guess people are finally starting to understand.

Lyn

klockdoc · May 30, 2012

JCIN said:
You keep referring to "opening boxes" like all Mark had to do was unpack a suitcase. I can understand that if you don't really know what actually happens every May at his office.

They tear down almost the whole office and move it a hotel for two weeks. Almost everything that is needed to run the whole office gets packed up trucked over, set up and used for two weeks. I would guess the staff averages fourteen hour days for those two weeks. Then after all that is finished they have to tear everything down, truck it back to the office, unpack everything, find all the stuff that goes with other stuff to make it work and set everything back up. I am talking pallet loads full of stuff. Its not a laptop and printer. I saw one pallet full of nothing but paperwork waiting to be loaded.

So next time you are in your home imagine packing everything up....moving it across the street, working twelve to sixteen hours a day dealing with thousands of of people who come to Vegas to drink and party with some pool thrown in...then moving it all back again and setting everything up to get back to running a 60,000 or so member league. Mark's not pulling your leg man. They have a lot of stuff to get straight after these things.

I have no clue what the final statement will say but I am 100% positive some will agree, some will hate it, most won't really care and several will make it into a conspiracy rivaled only by controlled demolitions and shooters on the grassy knoll.

I was only referring to "opening boxes" because that is what Mark stated in his earlier post. Again, it was only to "bump" the thread into the forefront, not to discredit his actions.

Besides, the need to "open boxes" wasn't even required as Mark was personally involved in this decision and has knowledge of what transpired.

I worked for APA for 7 years in Vegas. I know what takes place in the transfer of the home office to the site.

Now others do also.

stuckart · May 30, 2012

akaTrigger said:
There are no Team Masters anymore.

According to the BCA website:

If a team places:

Top 16 Men’s Mixed Open Team

Top 4 Women’s Open Team

Top 4% Men’s Mixed Advanced Teams

Then the players who finish as listed above in the Teams Divisions
will be moved to Advanced status. Players may petition to be lowered back to Open status based on their history in singles play or known ability.

A Bill Stock told me for my women's team that next year it cannot consist of more than TWO of the original team members because we placed in the top 4. I don't know what the ruling is for the guys team, b/c they can have 5 members play at a time (for the women's team it's only 4). I presume it's either 2 or 3.

You might want to find out exactly if all of the ladies will indeed be moved up to Advanced, because last year teams of players didn't get moved up if they competed in Singles and didn't break the threshold.

Marie's husband · May 30, 2012

Some people are bringing up the history of how top players have won the the open division. Well, wasnt that all supposed to change after the 2010 Nationals with the press releases adding the Advanced Division and Adding the "known ability" clause. Also it added that listed State Masters are going to be considered Master and/or Advanced players for Nationals depending on there previouse tournament results.

I would like to make a suggestion to the BCAPL. The CTS system tracks the history of tournaments and generates a database for a specific person or league number. Wouldnt it be easy to verify the Masters and Advanced players list for Nationals if all State and Regional tournaments were required to use the CTS tournament program for all state and regional BCAPL tournaments?

Im not saying that will remove the requirement of having an Advanced/Masters list by doing that, but it can be a tool used to verify and accurately update the list.

klockdoc · May 30, 2012

Duane Tuula said:
If if's and buts were candy & nuts... you get the idea!

The tourney is over. They were allowed to compete & complete the tourney. Pay the men and move on. Make some new adjustments if needed.

This is not the first time a really, really strong player has competed in the open division and won. And there are still a group of simply really strong players that are eligible for the open division again next year.

Good post, Duane.

I think I was questioned about my ability to play in your tournaments before.

I wrote you an email and asked if I was eligible, you said you would "check it out" and let me know.

You did your background check and confirmed that I was allowed to play.

I still haven't made the trip, however, I appreciate your decision allowing me to play. It saves a lot of time and possible wasted money if I didn't check first....drove all the way there....only to find out that I wasn't allowed to play in the level of tournament that I applied for.

But...let me ask you something. After checking my level of play, I entered your tournament and won! Would you still pay me?

BasementDweller · May 30, 2012

Marie's husband said:
Some people are bringing up the history of how top players have won the the open division. Well, wasnt that all supposed to change after the 2010 Nationals with the press releases adding the Advanced Division and Adding the "known ability" clause. Also it added that listed State Masters are going to be considered Master and/or Advanced players for Nationals depending on there previouse tournament results.

I would like to make a suggestion to the BCAPL. The CTS system tracks the history of tournaments and generates a database for a specific person or league number. Wouldnt it be easy to verify the Masters and Advanced players list for Nationals if all State and Regional tournaments were required to use the CTS tournament program for all state and regional BCAPL tournaments?

Im not saying that will remove the requirement of having an Advanced/Masters list by doing that, but it can be a tool used to verify and accurately update the list.

What fun would that be??? Then they wouldn't have the boxes of paperwork to haul around. :thumbup:

On a serious note:

As someone that hasn't really followed all the different amateur leagues (to my own detriment) I'm a bit confused why they use the term "Open" for the lower division?

To me, the idea of an "Open" tournament means that everyone is able to play in it, or at least the best of the best. Just like the U.S. Open 9 Ball, 10 Ball, and One-Pocket tournaments. Or in other sports like tennis or golf the Open tournaments are major championships. I find it a bit confusing the way they name the different divisions. While, I'm sure the players involved in this situation understood which division they were signing up for I wouldn't be at all surprised if there were players in the past that weren't so certain.

One other minor point would be if the game ever got to the point where the media dared to cover these major amateur events don't you think they would be confused by the open, advanced, & master classifications? It's starting to remind me of the car wash situation at the gas station were you have to select between the Ultra, the Deluxe, and the Supreme. It's only after you make your selection that you find out you picked the most expensive one by mistake.

Maybe it's just me.

akaTrigger · May 30, 2012

stuckart said:
You might want to find out exactly if all of the ladies will indeed be moved up to Advanced, because last year teams of players didn't get moved up if they competed in Singles and didn't break the threshold.

I already found out that we all move to advanced. But, we can petition to be moved down. We have to do it formally though through Bill Stock.

BCA Open team from TAIWAN disqualified?

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