Geometry: How could a Diamond bank differently than a Brunswick?

lawlist

Registered
I have never played on a Diamond table. There seems to be a general consensus among players that Diamond pool tables bank differently than Gold Crowns. I keep thinking about my geometry class in high school where the teacher explained reflexive angles .... I am at a complete loss as to why the geometry could possibly be any different between tables. Isn't a bank shot, is a bank shot, is a bank shot ... such that it shouldn't matter what table we are playing on?
 

deanoc

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I don't think it has to do with pure geometry
something about the characteristics of the rubber i do know they bank shorter than the gold crowns i am used to
 

Lawnboy77

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Rail rubber being the biggest difference between the two tables. The Blue label Diamond uses Artemis K-55 profile cushions while Brunswick GCs typically come with Superspeeds installed. A different hardness and nose shape would be my guess as to why.
 

Woodshaft

Do what works for YOU!
Tables with higher rails (contact point above playing surface) will "grab" a banked ball more, causing it to hold up, or be short. I too have experienced this on certain diamond tables.
 

Andrew Manning

Aspiring know-it-all
Silver Member
I have never played on a Diamond table. There seems to be a general consensus among players that Diamond pool tables bank differently than Gold Crowns. I keep thinking about my geometry class in high school where the teacher explained reflexive angles .... I am at a complete loss as to why the geometry could possibly be any different between tables. Isn't a bank shot, is a bank shot, is a bank shot ... such that it shouldn't matter what table we are playing on?

Light reflects off a mirror at those perfect angles your geometry teacher taught you about. Just about nothing else in the real world does.

First of all, the CB, although it doesn't really look like it to your eyes, loses almost half its speed when it bounces off a cushion, if hit straight into the cushion. That means that the component of its motion perpendicular to the cushion is cut in half during the bounce. If the other component (parallel to the cushion) were unaffected, which would be the case if the rail was frictionless, the table would bank extremely long.

But the rails are not frictionless, and the CB compresses the rubber a bit as it bounces. This makes the cushion "wrap around" the CB a bit during contact, meaning the friction of the rail cloth slows down the parallel-to-cushion component very significantly also.

On some rails, from some bank angles, at some speeds, these two things can cancel out and it can look like that perfect geometric angle in = angle out. But most of the time it'll be a little off. And both of those two factors are different depending on cushion material, cushion cut, rail construction, and probably a few other factors.

So every table banks "different" and it's not super easy to summarize exactly how. You kinda just have to get a feel for banking on different tables, and get good at adjusting to the conditions you find yourself in.
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I have never played on a Diamond table. There seems to be a general consensus among players that Diamond pool tables bank differently than Gold Crowns. I keep thinking about my geometry class in high school where the teacher explained reflexive angles .... I am at a complete loss as to why the geometry could possibly be any different between tables. Isn't a bank shot, is a bank shot, is a bank shot ... such that it shouldn't matter what table we are playing on?
Its the older Red label tables. The reason was the top surface of the cushion was angled down too steeply making the table play short. They changed this starting in 2010 with the Blue label by altering sub-rail angle. The Blues i've played on play fine.The Reds aren't horrible but they do bank a little short. Check "Ask Mechanic" section for more on this.
 
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JoeyInCali

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues
Silver Member
Its the older Red label tables. The reason was the top surface of the cushion was angled down too steeply making the table play short. They changed this starting in 2010 with the Blue label by altering sub-rail angle. The Blues i've played on play fine.The Reds aren't horrible but they do bank a little short. Check "Ask Mechanic" section for more on this.

Red Labels bank fine with Super Speed cushions.
The Artemis cushions will bank shorter than Super Speed.
Specially when the cloth gets old.
It's tip is more round and larger than Super Speed. It will grab the ball more.
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Red Labels bank fine with Super Speed cushions.
The Artemis cushions will bank shorter than Super Speed.
Specially when the cloth gets old.
It's tip is more round and larger than Super Speed. It will grab the ball more.

Its not just the type of cushion. They changed the sub-rails on the Blues as well.
 

8cree

Reverse Engineer
Silver Member
Its the older Red label tables. The reason was the top surface of the cushion was angled down too steeply making the table play short. They changed this starting in 2010 with the Blue label by altering sub-rail angle. The Blues i've played on play fine.The Reds aren't horrible but they do bank a little short. Check "Ask Mechanic" section for more on this.


I was wondering when they made the switch, thanks! :thumbup:
 

CocoboloCowboy

Cowboys are my hero's
Silver Member
The Diamond Banking System works OK.

Things that make it different from table to table are, Relative Humidity in Room, Tempeature, Condition of Cloth & Rails.

In theory two like Table in the Same Room with Brand New Cloth & Rails should be very very close to each other.
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The Diamond Banking System works OK.

Things that make it different from table to table are, Relative Humidity in Room, Tempeature, Condition of Cloth & Rails.

In theory two like Table in the Same Room with Brand New Cloth & Rails should be very very close to each other.
What you said is true but the Red label Diamonds all bank short. In humid conditions they REALLY bank short. We used to have eight at Magoo's in Tulsa and during the muggy months(all but about two) you had to aim everything long to make it. In '10 they changed them and they play fine now.
 

KissedOut

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I have never played on a Diamond table. There seems to be a general consensus among players that Diamond pool tables bank differently than Gold Crowns. I keep thinking about my geometry class in high school where the teacher explained reflexive angles .... I am at a complete loss as to why the geometry could possibly be any different between tables. Isn't a bank shot, is a bank shot, is a bank shot ... such that it shouldn't matter what table we are playing on?

Pool and billiards have little to do with geometry and everything to do with physics.
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Pool and billiards have little to do with geometry and everything to do with physics.
Banking and kicking don't involve geometry? I think the game involves a healthy dose of both physics and geometry. Also requires a lot of psychoanalysis if you play long enough. ;)
 

Cuebuddy

Mini cues
Silver Member
It’s strange that after playing on my Diamond Pro since 2007 I don’t feel it banks short at all.

I have noticed that Gold Crowns bank just a tad long😝
 
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