BCA Open team from TAIWAN disqualified?

I dont understand how you can let two players play all the way through a field of over a thousand players and then DQ them AFTER the finals for being too good.

There has to be some sort of BCAPL acceptance of responsibility for not reviewing these players earlier in the event and DQ'ing them by final 16 or 8 at the latest. It smacks of self interest to let it go on all the way to the conclusion of the finals since the lions share of the largest event at the tournament was not paid out. I follow pool closely and I know that Mark Griffin has done ALOT for pool, so im definitely not saying there was any decision made to let this go on to pocket 1/2nd dough....all im saying is the BCAPL leaves themselves open to alot of criticism and speculation of this very nature by DQ'ing 1st and 2nd after the open event is over. More than a few people here completely dropped the ball to have let this happen.

Eric. said:

If I remember this right, lemme add the color to this story...

Obviously, Harrison and Melling thought they were robbing the candy store. I believe Phil Harrison was pretty smug about beating you, Steve. Perhaps, you were having an off match too.

Anywho...I believe Melling and Harrison's faces dropped when you had to play Melling, so deep into the tourney


Eric >or, sumthing like that

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You got it! In a tournament of over 1,000 players, you don't expect to see the guy you beat 3 days ago still in the tournament, well after you yourself have been knocked out. Hehe. Would've been a nicer story had I beaten Chris though.

uwate said:

I dont understand how you can let two players play all the way through a field of over a thousand players and then DQ them AFTER the finals for being too good.

There has to be some sort of BCAPL acceptance of responsibility for not reviewing these players earlier in the event and DQ'ing them by final 16 or 8 at the latest. It smacks of self interest to let it go on all the way to the conclusion of the finals since the lions share of the largest event at the tournament was not paid out. I follow pool closely and I know that Mark Griffin has done ALOT for pool, so im definitely not saying there was any decision made to let this go on to pocket 1/2nd dough....all im saying is the BCAPL leaves themselves open to alot of criticism and speculation of this very nature by DQ'ing 1st and 2nd after the open event is over. More than a few people here completely dropped the ball to have let this happen.

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I strongly suspect the official statement is going to include some previously unknown information. Mark Griffin is a good man and I really believe the official statement will not simply be "after much consideration, we felt these players were too good so we didn't pay them." That would be a total cop-out and as a statement would fall flat.

I also believe, like it seems you do, there is no way the money will simply go back into the BCAPL coffer. Whether it gets split by the people they beat, or goes to pay their entry fees for next year, or something, it will not just be pocketed by Mark and his pals. That would be egregious and I really believe there is no chance of this being the final result.

- Steve

Our BCAPL had over 30 teams competing years ago. But, the closing of a poolroom several years ago and the general decline of taverns with pool tables has resulted in the league struggling to support 12 to 14 teams annually. Our league used to send up to 90 shooters to Vegas. That has shrunk to none attending this year, one team's worth last year, 10 the year before, etc. Is there any specific reason? Yes, it is the combination of the decline of the economy and the popularity of the sport.

Personally, I have not been able to afford to attend Nationals since 2008. Plus, the enticement to go is not quite what it used to be. As stated previously, it has become much more difficult to play with your buddies in the team events, because of the requirements. Adding more divisions and reducing roster sizes are not really too inviting, either. Having first attended Nationals in 1995, the goal was always to win. I could never complain about who I played or what the outcome was. The decisions made during any match were ones I had to live with. The cue is in my hand and am I good enough to manage the situations into a win has always been the challenge.

For years, players have entered the Open Division and perhaps should have been in a more advanced Division. But, to their credit, to survive and win in a field of more than 1000-2000 shooters is outstanding. In a race to 5, with alternating breaks, is no guarantee the best player wins. Areas have organized All-Star teams for years in hopes of winning it all. In 1997, the team I was on, the entire roster cashed in the Open, a 17th, a 33rd, two 65ths and a 97th. The team went on to finish 5th out of 700.

Even so, is there a flaw in what players enter what Division? Most likely, yes. But, once a player is allowed to play, how far into a tournament does that player go before it has been determined he/she is overly skilled? If they are, do the tournament directors forfeit him/her before the completion? And, if the player does complete the tournament and wins, why the sour grapes? Unless the League has been, somehow, seriously duped, then congrats to the winners and welcome to the next Division.

If someone has cheated, it's sort of like guns don't shoot people.

Still, the BCAPL's National event is the best to attend for any and all players.

I thought az'ers only bash the APA for sandbagging lol

What I don't understand is why teams are allowed to have one player from the above division on their roster and still be able to play in the lower division. The turnout in the master's division clearly shows that most players are looking to get into the weaker division and steal the money instead of playing against guys of their own caliber. Taiwan may have sent a team full of under-rated players and hijacked the singles and team events but that's nothing different than what been happening every year with teams from U.S.A., Canada, Spain, Portugal, etc.

I've never been to the BCA once, but my name appears on the master's list based on performances from the VNEA and I'm ok with it, so those who think you get a free shot at the open division your first time think again. As for the known player clause, I can't recall a single time that I ever heard of someone having it invoked on them and that's the fault of the charter holders who are more interested in their players winning hardware and cash than the overall well being of the tournament.

Masayoshi said:

It seems to me like a simple answer would be to split the Open category into two divisions.

One division for new players and players that cashed the previous year and the other for players that participated in, but didn't cash the previous year.

This would offer several advantages, it would make it so the weaker players have a better chance to cash, it would give incentive for weaker players to come back even if they got trounced the previous year, and it would also split the money up so unknown pro-level players have less incentive to come and rob it.

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I like this idea.

Masayoshi said:

It seems to me like a simple answer would be to split the Open category into two divisions.

One division for new players and players that cashed the previous year and the other for players that participated in, but didn't cash the previous year.

This would offer several advantages, it would make it so the weaker players have a better chance to cash, it would give incentive for weaker players to come back even if they got trounced the previous year, and it would also split the money up so unknown pro-level players have less incentive to come and rob it.

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Basically, you are saying that new players (ones that have never participated), should be placed in the Advanced Division.

Really not fair for those that are truly Open players.

klockdoc said:

Basically, you are saying that new players (ones that have never participated), should be placed in the Advanced Division.

Really not fair for those that are truly Open players.

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He didn't say that at all. The Advanced Division would still be the Advanced Division and no new players would be in that division unless they were known and judged to be "Advanced".

New players would play in a separate "Open" division, along with those who had played Open before and cashed (and not been moved to Advanced). The other, almost certainly larger portion of the Open division would be all those who had played the Open before and not cashed and also not been moved up to Advanced.

purpdrag said:

He didn't say that at all. The Advanced Division would still be the Advanced Division and no new players would be in that division unless they were known and judged to be "Advanced".

New players would play in a separate "Open" division, along with those who had played Open before and cashed (and not been moved to Advanced). The other, almost certainly larger portion of the Open division would be all those who had played the Open before and not cashed and also not been moved up to Advanced.

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If you cash in the Open, you get moved to the Advanced. Small field if you want to have a category for only "new" players.

Still not fair for those that are truly league players. I know I wouldn't want to spend a $1000 or more to make the trip to Vegas to play in a small field; out of the biggest and most exciting part of the tournament.

watchez said:

The format of the system today prohibits anymore from even wanting to go. Players like Justin, Andy Quinn, Lars Vardaman, Chuck Raulston, Joe Woolford -- who played and supported the BCAPL for years can no longer play. Being forced to play against Pro players in the Grand Masters for singles and ABSOLUTELY no team event for them to play in has made the trip one they don't even consider. To me, this is a huge loss to the BCAPL and the entire experience of the events in Vega$.

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I 100% agree with that. The same thing happens to the top teir amatures all over who are not quite "pro" level and are yet the local champs and heros and are the players that every local wants to see competing against all of the other top teir amatures from the other areas to see who is best.

The number of top teir amature players who no longer go to Vegas is staggering, in the last 5 years the dropoff has been huge and IMO it is due to the changes that the BCAPL has been making with too many divisions and yet too little rewards for climbing the ranks in those divisions at the top end.

All the division system does at the moment is act to ommit players from the prime tournaments and events which are actually the lower divisions with the huge money and participation. The teams become 4 and 3 man tournaments, the advanced supposedly actually being a shorter game race then the open teams and most of the people I know who played in the advanced hated the system. The advanced, masters, and grandmasters events have so little money and players that anything below a 4th place or so makes the whole trip questionable and they are bleeding off more and more players as a result.

purpdrag said:

He didn't say that at all. The Advanced Division would still be the Advanced Division and no new players would be in that division unless they were known and judged to be "Advanced".

New players would play in a separate "Open" division, along with those who had played Open before and cashed (and not been moved to Advanced). The other, almost certainly larger portion of the Open division would be all those who had played the Open before and not cashed and also not been moved up to Advanced.

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What you don't seem to get is that the two "open" divisions are not equal, the one where players who did not cash is now the lowest division and the second "open" division includes open players who cash and now the unknown new players who might in fact be monsters. For the new player who truly IS a lower level player that sucks because they are now being stuck into a tougher division that for all intents and purposes takes that place from the Advanced as the second teir division and is not named "advanced" simply because of semantics.

Unless they're professional gamblers, anyone who goes to Vegas to make money is barking up the wrong cactus.

Thanks WATCHEZ for telling it like it is.

watchez said:

Just an FYI - and to make things clear to everyone - when Justin got second in the Open division, he didn't over sleep his first match. It was down to the final 32 at least. He misread his match time and then yes was asleep during the time he was to play.

And to give more info, it wasn't Justin's first time playing in the Open Singles - he had been out there before. In the meantime, he was racking up Jr National Championships. And there were many complaints that he was playing in the Open Singles.

We had 6 players from St Louis out in Vega$ this year. The format of the system today prohibits anymore from even wanting to go. Players like Justin, Andy Quinn, Lars Vardaman, Chuck Raulston, Joe Woolford -- who played and supported the BCAPL for years can no longer play. Being forced to play against Pro players in the Grand Masters for singles and ABSOLUTELY no team event for them to play in has made the trip one they don't even consider. To me, this is a huge loss to the BCAPL and the entire experience of the events in Vega$.

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I don't like it since they added the Grand Masters. Players in our area have been affected to the point that they don't have options other than go play someone that plays for a living. Also no team option so many of the previous Master level players don't even go to Vegas. You said it well Watchez

I have a long list of pieces of advice for Mark Griffin -- just waiting for him to unbox his papers so I can respond.

I will let him know this ---

1) When you layout the RIO -- put the arena for the Pro Event in the front, not the back. Pool players, like most people, aren't very smart and I bet a large portion of them didn't even know a pro event was going on or how they could go watch it. Set up a few practice tables for the Pro's that are in the event only outside of the arena. Let the fans walk by and see them hit some balls. Let the players promote themselves and ask the fans to come inside and see what it is all about. Or have someone from CSI standing there to promote it. I'd rather have someone ask me none stop if I want to go watch the pros than ask if I want to buy a ticket to some gaffle for a cue that is worth about 30% of what the value they state it is.

2) Put Robin Dodson Bell -- yes she is great but --- in the back or in a side room by herself. The carnival around her booth has got to stop or at least not be an interruption to the main tournament room.

3) If you are going to have 40 tables for practice for the players (gambling?) - put lights over these tables as well.

Ok - I'll comment on the divisions, the Taiwanese, and the referees once Mark has finished unpacking.

Mark Griffin said:

However Jerry, I will respectfully disagree that a player will intentionally lose a match at the 49-64 level. That pays $375 - hardly enough to warrant returning every year to 'skim off' the event.
Mark Griffin

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Unfortunately it's true Mark. I saw it in 2011 first hand when a player who usually finishes in the top 16 in Scotch Doubles and top 32 in Teams was playing in the OPEN Singles, got to the 49th-64th place, was drilling the guy 4-0 and started shooting the 8 ball directly into the pocket, negotiated some sort of saver and made up some excuse that he had to catch a flight home, even though I saw him there for the team event 2 days later.

This year there was another player that many people were super shocked to see in the OPEN division. He mowed down everyone with ease to the 49th place match and all of a sudden changed his entire game. Different Break spot, hitting every shot at 82 mph, trying impossible shots and laughing to his buddy about it afterwards. He got 2 games I think, only because his opponent sold out racks that were too easy to pass up. I met this guy the first tuesday night as he gambled even with a master and a grand master player from my area before any of the events kicked off.

I think one way of preventing this from happening would be to not publish the cutoff numbers for players to move up before the event.

watchez said:

I have a long list of pieces of advice for Mark Griffin -- just waiting for him to unbox his papers so I can respond.

I will let him know this ---

1) When you layout the RIO -- put the arena for the Pro Event in the front, not the back. Pool players, like most people, aren't very smart and I bet a large portion of them didn't even know a pro event was going on or how they could go watch it. Set up a few practice tables for the Pro's that are in the event only outside of the arena. Let the fans walk by and see them hit some balls. Let the players promote themselves and ask the fans to come inside and see what it is all about. Or have someone from CSI standing there to promote it. I'd rather have someone ask me none stop if I want to go watch the pros than ask if I want to buy a ticket to some gaffle for a cue that is worth about 30% of what the value they state it is.

2) Put Robin Dodson Bell -- yes she is great but --- in the back or in a side room by herself. The carnival around her booth has got to stop or at least not be an interruption to the main tournament room.

3) If you are going to have 40 tables for practice for the players (gambling?) - put lights over these tables as well.

Ok - I'll comment on the divisions, the Taiwanese, and the referees once Mark has finished unpacking.

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Great Points! I completely agree! (Steve Lillis can go next to Robin)

I hope the 40 practice/mini tournament tables are available for practice before matches and not completely locked up with mini's.

Sheesh, when will Mark finish unpacking? I really want to read what Watchez has to say...

Celtic said:

What you don't seem to get is that the two "open" divisions are not equal, the one where players who did not cash is now the lowest division and the second "open" division includes open players who cash and now the unknown new players who might in fact be monsters. For the new player who truly IS a lower level player that sucks because they are now being stuck into a tougher division that for all intents and purposes takes that place from the Advanced as the second teir division and is not named "advanced" simply because of semantics.

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The new player who is a lower level player has little chance of cashing his first year in either format, so I don't see how that is a detriment to splitting the open. At least with the division split into two, he has a good chance of cashing the next year, which would probably be preferable to most rather than not cashing for two years straight.

The difference between the two open divisions and an advanced and open division would be that you have to play in the open at least once before getting into the lower division. As opposed to anybody being able to play in the lower division as long as they are unknown. It would essentially be an automatic ranking system, not perfect, but preferable to heresay and the opinions of the people running the tournament (not to mention less detective work). If anybody complains about somebody being too good, the tournament director can just point to the previous year's results and say "look he went 2 and out last year".

One more advantage is that with less money concentrated in the lower divisions, it would give stronger open players incentive to willingly play in the higher divisions possibly making it easier for the less skilled players to cash in the upper level open.

Eric. said:

Again, you bring up the "multiple year NATIONAL champion" title to assign to him. Does the fact that all the titles were for speed shooting and artistic Pool mean anything to you?? In case you aren't aware or are willfully ignoring the fact; speed shooting has very little to do with how well someone plays. FACT. If Kane was a multiple, NATIONAL, jump shot champion, wuold you complain about that too, as a reason why you lost at 8 ball? It really is apples to cantaloupes.

So, basically, you say one thing, but really feel another way about it.

You say things like:

"Believe me I am NOT complaining and I had MORE than enough chances. I am NOT knocking Jason either."

"brought to the BCAPL authorities attention PRIOR to my match. I accepted their decision"

Then you say:

"The BCAPL does a GREAT job and offers a great experience. However sometimes they appear to be hypocritical. Let's not forget "Actions speak louder than words".

Who is the real hypocrite? I say you- you are talking out of both sides of your mouth.

The last point I will make is that (in all honesty), I suspect you are one of those pool players that think their abilities are much better than reality:

"As far as my abilities I can run tables with the best of them but I simply don't get enough playing or practise time anymore. My nearest tables are more than 2-hours away because of where I work"

I'm guessing you dont practice much due to your job and 2 hour drive to a poolhall. You also lost to two guys that didn't go very far in the Open tourney, not deep finishers.

Think about that.


Eric

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Not sure what the hell your problem is. You don't know me and I sure as hell don't know you.

Seems like you are demeaning Jason's accomplishments and his abilities. Perhaps you should try to emulate his record.

Let's say you have a national 9-ball champion.... does that mean he/she can't play 8-ball? You have a world class snooker player.... does that mean he/she can't play any other cue sport. With enough time and effort I guess a champion class player could excel at other cue sports.

Without knowing me you belittle my playing abilities based on what... the limited BCAPL results. You mentioned that the folks that defeated me didn't go very deep. Apply the same logic a little further. Where or how did their opponents do? Maybe they lost to one of two taiwanese players.

Not sure how I am being hypocritical when I say, I fully believe the BCAPL does a great job at promoting the sport. However I do feel that sometimes they do not follow their own rules or policies to the letter of the law. I still stand by my "Actions speak louder than words" when I see what happens with the Taiwanese players.

You have made a few assumptions about me in the same way I made some assumptions about Jason. I now have some assumptions about you. Who knows maybe someday we will match up at the BCAPL Nationals.

Unfortunately you do have the advantage since you know my full name but I don't know yours.

Before I forget because of your erroneous assumptions about me.... I accept your apology!!!!!!!!!! :grinning-moose::grinning-moose::grinning-moose: