BCA Open team from TAIWAN disqualified?

Masayoshi

Fusenshou no Masa
Silver Member
Not sure what the hell your problem is. You don't know me and I sure as hell don't know you.

Seems like you are demeaning Jason's accomplishments and his abilities. Perhaps you should try to emulate his record.

Let's say you have a national 9-ball champion.... does that mean he/she can't play 8-ball? You have a world class snooker player.... does that mean he/she can't play any other cue sport. With enough time and effort I guess a champion class player could excel at other cue sports.

Without knowing me you belittle my playing abilities based on what... the limited BCAPL results. You mentioned that the folks that defeated me didn't go very deep. Apply the same logic a little further. Where or how did their opponents do? Maybe they lost to one of two taiwanese players.

Not sure how I am being hypocritical when I say, I fully believe the BCAPL does a great job at promoting the sport. However I do feel that sometimes they do not follow their own rules or policies to the letter of the law. I still stand by my "Actions speak louder than words" when I see what happens with the Taiwanese players.

You have made a few assumptions about me in the same way I made some assumptions about Jason. I now have some assumptions about you. Who knows maybe someday we will match up at the BCAPL Nationals.

Unfortunately you do have the advantage since you know my full name but I don't know yours.

Before I forget because of your erroneous assumptions about me.... I accept your apology!!!!!!!!!! :grinning-moose::grinning-moose::grinning-moose:
He was getting on your case because your posts were two faced, which I have to agree with.

You said

Now I realize that being a National Speed Pool Champion for MULTIPLE years doesn't really reflect a person's abilities to play in the open BUT I was surprised to say the least.
Yet you implied that you tried to get your ref friend to disqualified him based on those results. You didn't directly say that you were trying to get him DQ'ed, but the only reason to bring that to the attention to BCAPL officials would be because you want to win by forfeit even though you know that speed pool has nothing to do with actual pool.

Then you go on to call the BCAPL somewhat hypocritical because they allow a national champion into the event. This might be the case were it not for your self-admitted fact that speed pool has jack shit to do with normal pool. You might as well try disqualifying golfers, bowlers, and poker players while you are at it because they have more skills that translate to pool playing skill than speed pool and trick shots.

The points you bring up about 9 ball players and snooker players not being eligible for the 8 ball event isn't relevant to your argument because snooker and 9 ball skills actually do translate to 8 ball skill.
 
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uwate

daydreaming about pool
Silver Member
Not sure what the hell your problem is. You don't know me and I sure as hell don't know you.

Seems like you are demeaning Jason's accomplishments and his abilities. Perhaps you should try to emulate his record.

Let's say you have a national 9-ball champion.... does that mean he/she can't play 8-ball? You have a world class snooker player.... does that mean he/she can't play any other cue sport. With enough time and effort I guess a champion class player could excel at other cue sports.

Without knowing me you belittle my playing abilities based on what... the limited BCAPL results. You mentioned that the folks that defeated me didn't go very deep. Apply the same logic a little further. Where or how did their opponents do? Maybe they lost to one of two taiwanese players.

Not sure how I am being hypocritical when I say, I fully believe the BCAPL does a great job at promoting the sport. However I do feel that sometimes they do not follow their own rules or policies to the letter of the law. I still stand by my "Actions speak louder than words" when I see what happens with the Taiwanese players.

You have made a few assumptions about me in the same way I made some assumptions about Jason. I now have some assumptions about you. Who knows maybe someday we will match up at the BCAPL Nationals.

Unfortunately you do have the advantage since you know my full name but I don't know yours.

Before I forget because of your erroneous assumptions about me.... I accept your apology!!!!!!!!!! :grinning-moose::grinning-moose::grinning-moose:

national champion at 9ball? uh yeah that player plays good 8ball for sure

national champion at snooker? uh yeah that player also probably can run the hell out at 8ball with very little transition.

national champion at artistic pool? ummmm ok he definitely has got way the best of it at jacking straight up in the air and curving the cueball 360 degrees to come straight back down table to make the 8 hanging. I tend to think most good open players would have to try him some though.

artistic pool and speed pool champs who have never won anything playing regular pool deserve a shot in the bartable 8ball open. There is no correlation between these cuesports that lends any credibility to your argument. But dont take my word on it...take the word of even your buddy ref who told you the same thing when you tried to knock that guy at the tourny and get him DQ.

Two other guys have already come on here who know this guy personally and have said hes fairly rated as an open player. If anyone owes an apology it should be you to Jason for trying to get him DQ at nationals and then b1tching about his handicap here on AZ.
 

mooseman

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
He was getting on your case because your posts were two faced, which I have to agree with.

You said


Yet you implied that you tried to get your ref friend to disqualified him based on those results. You didn't directly say that you were trying to get him DQ'ed, but the only reason to bring that to the attention to BCAPL officials would be because you want to win by forfeit even though you know that speed pool has nothing to do with actual pool.

Then you go on to call the BCAPL somewhat hypocritical because they allow a national champion into the event. This might be the case were it not for your self-admitted fact that speed pool has jack shit to do with normal pool. You might as well try disqualifying golfers, bowlers, and poker players while you are at it because they have more skills that translate to pool playing skill than speed pool and trick shots.

The points you bring up about 9 ball players and snooker players not being eligible for the 8 ball event isn't relevant to your argument because snooker and 9 ball skills actually do translate to 8 ball skill.

Eric is the person who brought the Jump Pool champion into the conversation. I guess I am confused.... doesn't one require cue handling and ball making skills to play speed pool the same as to play any other recognized cue sport?

I guess Eric or you would play anyone regardless even if you knew their abilities or skill level. I commend you!!! I'm just questioning the BCAPL policy in the area of eligibility. Other examples about previous junior champions being allowed to play in the open come to mind. As soon as I became aware of who I was playing in the first round did I attempt to question eligibility. I did bring this to light PRIOR to any play versus DQing someone AFTER the final or once the competition actually began.

As far as my referee friend checking on eligibility was the mere fact that he was already in Vegas and could check with Bill Stock direct. I already knew who Jason was and it surprised me he was playing in the open versus advanced or master. Based solely on BCAPL policy about placing players in the correct level. Once they confirmed his eligibility I ACCEPTED THIS and played!

I only brought my situation up now based on the intent of this thread about 2 Taiwanese players being DQ'd based on their assumed skill level.
 
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mooseman

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
national champion at 9ball? uh yeah that player plays good 8ball for sure

national champion at snooker? uh yeah that player also probably can run the hell out at 8ball with very little transition.

national champion at artistic pool? ummmm ok he definitely has got way the best of it at jacking straight up in the air and curving the cueball 360 degrees to come straight back down table to make the 8 hanging. I tend to think most good open players would have to try him some though.

artistic pool and speed pool champs who have never won anything playing regular pool deserve a shot in the bartable 8ball open. There is no correlation between these cuesports that lends any credibility to your argument. But dont take my word on it...take the word of even your buddy ref who told you the same thing when you tried to knock that guy at the tourny and get him DQ.

Two other guys have already come on here who know this guy personally and have said hes fairly rated as an open player. If anyone owes an apology it should be you to Jason for trying to get him DQ at nationals and then b1tching about his handicap here on AZ.

WOW.... this is harsh. Again I was confirming eligibility PRIOR to any play. I don't care who I'm playing against. Replace Jason with player X. You substitute the name. Once his eligibility was confirmed, I dropped it and played.

The whole apology thing was based on Eric making assumptions about me and my playing abilities without him knowing me or what my actual abilities are. Also note sarcasm through the use of emoticons.
 

Masayoshi

Fusenshou no Masa
Silver Member
Eric is the person who brought the Jump Pool champion into the conversation. I guess I am confused.... doesn't one require cue handling and ball making skills to play speed pool the same as to play any other recognized cue sport?

Speed pool is as much recognized cue sport as miniature golf is a recognized club sport. Actually, probably less.

I guess Eric or you would play anyone regardless even if you knew their abilities or skill level. I commend you!!! I'm just questioning the BCAPL policy in the area of eligibility. Other examples about previous junior champions being allowed to play in the open come to mind. As soon as I became aware of who I was playing in the first round did I attempt to question eligibility. I did bring this to light PRIOR to any play versus DQing someone AFTER the final or once the competition actually began.
Again, the issue is not that you complained about his eligibility, its that you complained about his eligibility even though you know that his titles mean nothing toward real pool. You seem to just have been looking for an easy way into the next round.

Junior national champions are the same deal. Sure there are some pro-level junior players, but there are also often times weaker champions because it is not an entirely open field and there are usually few participants although taking a junior title certainly holds more weight towards having game than a speed pool championship.
As far as my referee friend checking on eligibility was the mere fact that he was already in Vegas and could check with Bill Stock direct. I already knew who Jason was and it surprised me he was playing in the open versus advanced or master. Based solely on BCAPL policy about placing players in the correct level. Once they confirmed his eligibility I ACCEPTED THIS and played!
Good for you, but what option did you have? I guess you could have held your breath and stomped your feet until they DQ'ed him.
I only brought my situation up now based on the intent of this thread about 2 Taiwanese players being DQ'd based on their assumed skill level.
 

mooseman

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Speed pool is as much recognized cue sport as miniature golf is a recognized club sport. Actually, probably less.


Again, the issue is not that you complained about his eligibility, its that you complained about his eligibility even though you know that his titles mean nothing toward real pool. You seem to just have been looking for an easy way into the next round.

Now we are getting into semantics. Boy would I love to make it through every round by whatever means I can within the letter of the law. BEFORE I FORGET I AM BEING SARCASTIC. I enjoy the competition regardless of who I play because I enjoy the sport and ALL aspects of the sport.

So you and others don't consider Speed Pool as REAL POOL. It still requires the same skill levels as say playing other forms of cue sports. You're still playing position, you're still making balls, you still have a game plan and what strategy to use. Your main opponent is the clock. I forgot instead of getting ball in hand on a foul you are penalized with time penalties. I seem to recall the only difference is you aren't penalized for a ball not hitting a rail. You still have to make a legal shot the same as in 8-ball if you are in round one or round two. Sure seems like REAL POOL to me.

But hey what do I know about playing pool according to Eric or others.... :grinning-moose::grinning-moose::grinning-moose:

Now let's focus on the two Taiwanese players that were actually DQ'd.
 

Masayoshi

Fusenshou no Masa
Silver Member
Now we are getting into semantics. Boy would I love to make it through every round by whatever means I can within the letter of the law. BEFORE I FORGET I AM BEING SARCASTIC. I enjoy the competition regardless of who I play because I enjoy the sport and ALL aspects of the sport.

Its not semantics, its intent. You complained about him full knowing that he probably wasn't above the open skill level. If you really didn't care about who you played, you wouldn't have complained.


So you and others don't consider Speed Pool as REAL POOL. It still requires the same skill levels as say playing other forms of cue sports. You're still playing position, you're still making balls, you still have a game plan and what strategy to use. Your main opponent is the clock. I forgot instead of getting ball in hand on a foul you are penalized with time penalties. I seem to recall the only difference is you aren't penalized for a ball not hitting a rail. You still have to make a legal shot the same as in 8-ball if you are in round one or round two. Sure seems like REAL POOL to me.

But hey what do I know about playing pool according to Eric or others.... :grinning-moose::grinning-moose::grinning-moose:

Not much if you think speed pool skills have any bearing on real pool skills.


Now let's focus on the two Taiwanese players that were actually DQ'd.
Sure, why not.
 

Eric.

Club a member
Silver Member
But hey what do I know about playing pool according to Eric or others.... :grinning-moose::grinning-moose::grinning-moose:

Dude, this is the 2nd or 3rd time you keep bringing my name up, while responding to others. :rolleyes:

It's becoming obvious that you are stubborn and don't care for opinions if they don't concide with yours. You also come across as a crybaby or "a dry va jay jay", as the cool kids say.

Lemme just say this (not that I expect it to get through to you), Speed Pool has very little to do with being a highly skilled player. With Speed Pool, you are basically shoot any straight shot you can find and trying to stop the ball. Basically, stopping the CB when ever you can, so you can run over and shoot the next shot. Rarely are you playing cut shots, rolling the CB for position or playing safes. The analogy about miniature Golf vs regular Golf is prolly the best one.

Anyway, carry on.


Eric >maybe find some Astro Glide
 
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tucson9ball

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Unfortunately it's true Mark. I saw it in 2011 first hand when a player who usually finishes in the top 16 in Scotch Doubles and top 32 in Teams was playing in the OPEN Singles, got to the 49th-64th place, was drilling the guy 4-0 and started shooting the 8 ball directly into the pocket, negotiated some sort of saver and made up some excuse that he had to catch a flight home, even though I saw him there for the team event 2 days later.

This year there was another player that many people were super shocked to see in the OPEN division. He mowed down everyone with ease to the 49th place match and all of a sudden changed his entire game. Different Break spot, hitting every shot at 82 mph, trying impossible shots and laughing to his buddy about it afterwards. He got 2 games I think, only because his opponent sold out racks that were too easy to pass up. I met this guy the first tuesday night as he gambled even with a master and a grand master player from my area before any of the events kicked off.

I think one way of preventing this from happening would be to not publish the cutoff numbers for players to move up before the event.


Jerry, I would have to question the logic behind this move?

Why travel to Vegas, pay for a room and then get to the small cash without trying for more?

It seems smarter to not even play in singles. Just play in the challenge room for more money. If this person doesn't want to be know as an Advanced/Master player then why pay the $125 entry for the Open and then dump?
 

klockdoc

ughhhhhhhhhh
Silver Member
Jerry, I would have to question the logic behind this move?

Why travel to Vegas, pay for a room and then get to the small cash without trying for more?

It seems smarter to not even play in singles. Just play in the challenge room for more money. If this person doesn't want to be know as an Advanced/Master player then why pay the $125 entry for the Open and then dump?

Years ago, when you could have three originals on an Open team that finished high in the tournament, you could have only 1 Master player on your team. I think now it is one Advanced player.

Scenario - If you were playing the Open Singles, was in the losers bracket and at a point where you were going to cash and be moved up to the Masters (or Advance section as is now), and this would eliminate your ability to play with your team next trip....I could see (and have seen it actually) where this could/would happen.
 

Steve Lipsky

On quest for perfect 14.1
Silver Member
Jerry, I would have to question the logic behind this move?

Why travel to Vegas, pay for a room and then get to the small cash without trying for more?

It seems smarter to not even play in singles. Just play in the challenge room for more money. If this person doesn't want to be know as an Advanced/Master player then why pay the $125 entry for the Open and then dump?

Agreed. Not saying it didn't happen, as if Stuckart saw it, he saw it. Just saying you can't legislate stupidity. The BCAPL has provided a platform where it makes very little sense to dump (except in the very particular instance I mentioned earlier). If someone still wants to, it's really on them and the BCAPL shouldn't be held accountable for having some kind of flaw in the system.

More than likely, the isolated examples Stuckart saw have to do with time conflicts. This could be anything from the truly unavoidable (work conference call) to the easily avoidable (poker tournament starting at the Bellagio).

Just my opinion.

- Steve
 

mooseman

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Dude, this is the 2nd or 3rd time you keep bringing my name up, while responding to others. :rolleyes:

It's becoming obvious that you are stubborn and don't care for opinions if they don't concide with yours. You also come across as a crybaby or "a dry va jay jay", as the cool kids say.

Lemme just say this (not that I expect it to get through to you), Speed Pool has very little to do with being a highly skilled player. With Speed Pool, you are basically shoot any straight shot you can find and trying to stop the ball. Basically, stopping the CB when ever you can, so you can run over and shoot the next shot. Rarely are you playing cut shots, rolling the CB for position or playing safes. The analogy about miniature Golf vs regular Golf is prolly the best one.

Anyway, carry on.


Eric >maybe find some Astro Glide

Sir

You are the one that disparaged my abilities without knowing me or the facts based on your limited knowledge and assumptions. I only got involved in the discussion with a specific example of questioning someone's eligibility based on the BCAPL policy. It's the same thing I would do REGARDLESS of my opponent. It's just that my opponent was Jason Kane in this case which is why you deemed it necessary to respond in the first place to correct my alleged misconceptions.

As a result others now join the bandwagon with similar views as yours. When it comes down to me mentioning you by name in any of these posts it is only because you seem to be the expert on everything pool related. Now the cry baby comment...... It is you that makes things more personal than they need to be.

I am now responding to posts that concern me as they occur, nothing more and nothing less. I am just defending my opinions, nothing more, nothing less. Obviously we will have to agree to disagree on some things.

No need to reply unless you need another response.
 
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mooseman

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Its not semantics, its intent. You complained about him full knowing that he probably wasn't above the open skill level. If you really didn't care about who you played, you wouldn't have complained.




Not much if you think speed pool skills have any bearing on real pool skills.



Sure, why not.

Dude, this is the 2nd or 3rd time you keep bringing my name up, while responding to others. :rolleyes:

It's becoming obvious that you are stubborn and don't care for opinions if they don't concide with yours. You also come across as a crybaby or "a dry va jay jay", as the cool kids say.

Lemme just say this (not that I expect it to get through to you), Speed Pool has very little to do with being a highly skilled player. With Speed Pool, you are basically shoot any straight shot you can find and trying to stop the ball. Basically, stopping the CB when ever you can, so you can run over and shoot the next shot. Rarely are you playing cut shots, rolling the CB for position or playing safes. The analogy about miniature Golf vs regular Golf is prolly the best one.

Anyway, carry on.


Eric >maybe find some Astro Glide

Hey sounds like you need a greater skill to play speed pool well if you are left with all stop shots and no cut shots. Talk about precision speed control and position play. I forgot the true professionals always make pool look easy. I seem to recall you play the game on the SAME table with the SAME equipment and for the most part SAME rules. Wait a minute you never see them use chalk in speed pool. Must be some special tips they use. :thumbup:

Speed Pool is a different pool game that requires the exact same skills required to play any other pool game.

Why are you all hating so much on Speed Pool? Could it be you just don't really know how to play the game.
 
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DogsPlayingPool

"What's in your wallet?"
Silver Member
From 2006 -2010 Luc Salvas won 3 of 5 speed pool championships. He's a well known professional pool player from Canada. Bobby MacGrath, also a professional from Illinois, won the other two. Don't know if he's world beater speed, but I understand he is at least strong short-stop. Interestingly, here's an entry from his Wikipedia page:

Despite having competed professionally for several years, he was permitted to play earlier in 2007 in the amateur VNEA Speed Pool Championship, which he won.[1]

Wonder if that caused protests.
 
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Eric.

Club a member
Silver Member
You are the one that disparaged my abilities without knowing me or the facts based on your limited knowledge and assumptions.

Here is your past performance, along with the opponents that beat you, and how well they fared in the BCAPL Open tourney, over the last 3 years:

2012- http://ctsondemand.com/EntrantMatches.aspx?EntrantID=239108199

2011- http://ctsondemand.com/EntrantMatches.aspx?EntrantID=210473931

2009- http://ctsondemand.com/EntrantMatches.aspx?EntrantID=71668714

This is where I was basing my assessment of your tourney performance from.

Not much more needs to be said as far as your play.


Eric
 

cardiac kid

Super Senior Member
Silver Member
Years ago, when you could have three originals on an Open team that finished high in the tournament, you could have only 1 Master player on your team. I think now it is one Advanced player.

Scenario - If you were playing the Open Singles, was in the losers bracket and at a point where you were going to cash and be moved up to the Masters (or Advance section as is now), and this would eliminate your ability to play with your team next trip....I could see (and have seen it actually) where this could/would happen.

klockdoc,

Got to that point Monday. Looked at the potential downfall of winning a match that would move me to the Advanced group. Actually didn't think of dumping. Just wanted to win. Tuesday morning the same situation occurred when I played the match for 7/8. Honestly did question whether or not I wanted a second visit to the Masters group. Once that match was history, found winning the Open became my only goal. Almost got there. Lost 5/4. Not sure if I'd have beaten either of the guys from Taiwan. It would have been interesting though!

The only people who questioned my finish were my Open teammates. They, like you, saw my participation in our team ending. Should I have dumped? Not a chance. May never have the opportunity again. I'll be back at 68 years young next year. Hope to have the honor to be the oldest active Master player! Already have an Advanced Team lined up. Anyone for Master Scotch Doubles?????

Lyn
 

mooseman

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Here is your past performance, along with the opponents that beat you, and how well they fared in the BCAPL Open tourney, over the last 3 years:

2012- http://ctsondemand.com/EntrantMatches.aspx?EntrantID=239108199

2011- http://ctsondemand.com/EntrantMatches.aspx?EntrantID=210473931

2009- http://ctsondemand.com/EntrantMatches.aspx?EntrantID=71668714

This is where I was basing my assessment of your tourney performance from.

Not much more needs to be said as far as your play.


Eric

Thanks for the reminder. Obviously I AM eligible to play in the open. I might not be qualified but definitely proves I am eligible to play. :eek::eek::eek:

2009 (a great year) I got my entry back fee back.

2010 my first opponent I lost to finished 65 through 96.

I didn't play in 2011 due to back surgery.

2012 already know the results.......

Now would you kindly provide your similar results to show how qualified you are to judge......

I'm guessing you can give me tons of weight if we ever have the opportunity to gamble unless I am too far below your ability......;););)
 
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watchez

What time is it?
Silver Member
I have an idea - just don't open the thread and you won't have to worry about it. You have had nothing to add even remotely related to the topic over the past 3 pages and simply could give a woodpecker a headache. :banghead:
 
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