[Kevin Lindstrom]

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[Seth C.]

Originally Posted by Bob Jewett

This is a slightly old list. I hear there have been some changes and there are currently 48 players.

1. Alcaide David Salamanca Spain
2. Babica Radoslaw Rokietnica Poland
3. Badstuebner Mike Bethpage NY
4. Chen Ryes Nyack NY
5. Chin Holden Bayside NY
6. Chinahov Ruslan Moscow Russia
7. Davis Mike Raleigh NC
8. Dudanets Maksim Moscow 140023 Russia
9. Eberle Max Las Vegas NV
10. Eckert Ralph G. Berlin Germany
11. Eisenberg, MD Elliot San Francisco CA
12. Fortunski Mieszko Lublin Poland
13. Gleich Tom Durham NC
14. Gorst Fedor Moscow Russia
15. He Mario Feldkirch Austria
16. Heller, James Short Hills NJ
17. Hohmann Thorsten Jacksonville FL
18. Hunter Bob Prospect Heights IL
19. Immonen Mika New York NY
20. Judge Ben Padbury W. Australia
21. Juszczyszyn Konrad Lublin Poland
22. Kaci Eklent Tirana Albania
23. Kiamco Warren Quezon City Philippines
24. Korsiak Joey Ronkonkoma NY
25. Kudlik Marek Kutno Poland
26. Lombardo Hunter Royal Palm Beach FL
27. Madenjian Bob Brooklyn CT
28. Makkonen Petri Hyvinkaa Finland
29. Matikainen Casper Helsinki Finland
30. Matthieu Steve Salem NH
31. Morgan Sean Astoria NY
32. Orcollo Dennis Quezon City Philippines
33. Pagulayan Alex Cerritos CA
34. Pole Rob Brooklyn NY
35. Polo Don Ocean View NJ
36. Reyes Efren Manilla Philippines
37. Robles Tony Wantagh NY
38. Sanchez-Ruiz Francisco Murcia Spain
39. Schmidt John Hesperia CA
40. Siekkinen Jani Helsinki Finland
41. Sim Del Jersey City NJ
42. Smith Jonathan New York NY
43. Souquet Ralf Geisenfeld Germany
44. Van Corteza Lee Davao City Philippines
45. Walsh John Bohemia NY
46. Walter Tom Great Neck NY
47. Wilkie Shaun Havre de Grace MD
48. Yednak Michael Brooklyn NY
49. Zvi Zion Flushing NY

sjm — Following up on the recent discussions regarding strength of field in this event as compared to the Charlie Williams event, and, more importantly, as compared to the US Open and other top straight pool tournaments “back in the day,” which players in this field do you consider to currently be bona fide “great” (or “world class” or whatever term you’d like to pick and perhaps attempt to define) straight pool players, as opposed to being “past their prime” (if they used to be “great” in straight pool ), never “great” at straight pool, or never “great” at any game of pocket billiards? Separately, who, if anyone, from among those missing from this field, would you consider to currently be a “great” straight pool player (e.g., perhaps Feijen, Appleton)?

Seth

[Bob Jewett]

Below are the players in the top 100 on FargoRate. Of course that's not 14.1 but there aren't that many straight pool specialists. Notable entries who are not in the FR100 include John Schmidt and Konrad Juszczyszyn.

It would have been nice to see these FR100 players entered, all of whom have played in US 14.1 tournaments: Filler, Shaw, Van Boening, Biado, Feijen, Ouschan, Appleton, Lo Li Wen, Melling, Deuel, Strickland, Archer, Ortmann.

It would also be nice to see more Chinese players entered. They have been playing top 14.1 at least since 2000.

My pick is Orcullo. He is capable of averaging 50 per scoring inning.

(FargoRate is the last number.)

1. Alcaide David Salamanca Spain 33
2. Babica Radoslaw Rokietnica Poland 91
3. Chinahov Ruslan Moscow Russia 44
4. Fortunski Mieszko Lublin Poland 81
5. Gorst Fedor Moscow Russia 21
6. He Mario Feldkirch Austria 41
7. Hohmann Thorsten Jacksonville FL 53
8. Immonen Mika New York NY 39
9. Kaci Eklent Tirana Albania 10
10. Kiamco Warren Quezon City Philippines 23
11. Kudlik Marek Kutno Poland 87
12. Makkonen Petri Hyvinkaa Finland 62
13. Orcollo Dennis Quezon City Philippines 5
14. Pagulayan Alex Cerritos CA 14
15. Reyes Efren Manilla Philippines 46
16. Sanchez-Ruiz Francisco Murcia Spain 17
17. Souquet Ralf Geisenfeld Germany 32
18. Van Corteza Lee Davao City Philippines 15

[sjm]

Originally Posted by Seth C.

sjm — Following up on the recent discussions regarding strength of field in this event as compared to the Charlie Williams event, and, more importantly, as compared to the US Open and other top straight pool tournaments “back in the day,” which players in this field do you consider to currently be bona fide “great” (or “world class” or whatever term you’d like to pick and perhaps attempt to define) straight pool players, as opposed to being “past their prime” (if they used to be “great” in straight pool ), never “great” at straight pool, or never “great” at any game of pocket billiards? Separately, who, if anyone, from among those missing from this field, would you consider to currently be a “great” straight pool player (e.g., perhaps Feijen, Appleton)?

Seth

I'm restricting this to those that have shown strong form in 14.1 at some point recently, not just talented guys who shoot straight and, therefore, can't be discounted.

Using this principle, I'd call eleven of these to be world class "great" at present, namely Ruslan Chinakhov, Mike Davis, Max Eberle, Thorsten Hohmann, Mika Immonen, Dennis Orcollo, Alex Pagulayan, Tony Robles, John Schmidt, Ralf Souquet, and Lee Van Corteza.

Off the top of my head, the most noteworthy world class "great" straight pool players at present who are missing: Darren Appleton, Nick Vandenberg, Niels Feijen, Oliver Ortmann, Jayson Shaw, Earl Strickland, Johnny Archer, Stefan Cohen, Shane Van Boening, Corey Deuel, Danny Harriman, Dennis Hatch and Francisco Bustamante.

[Seth C.]

Originally Posted by sjm

I'm restricting this to those that have shown strong form in 14.1 at some point recently, not just talented guys who shoot straight and, therefore, can't be discounted.

Using this principle, I'd call eleven of these to be world class "great" at present, namely Ruslan Chinakhov, Mike Davis, Max Eberle, Thorsten Hohmann, Mika Immonen, Dennis Orcollo, Alex Pagulayan, Tony Robles, John Schmidt, Ralf Souquet, and Lee Van Corteza.

Off the top of my head, the most noteworthy world class "great" straight pool players at present who are missing: Darren Appleton, Nick Vandenberg, Niels Feijen, Oliver Ortmann, Jayson Shaw, Earl Strickland, Johnny Archer, Stefan Cohen, Shane Van Boening, Corey Deuel, Danny Harriman, Dennis Hatch and Francisco Bustamante.

Okay ... so ... how would the combined list of all of the players you’ve noted above, including both those in the field and those not (total of 24), stack up against the top 24 in the actual fields in the US Opens held during the golden years of straight pool?

Also, Shaw and SVB are “great” straight pool players? Neither one has played it much at all, has he? Perhaps the same can be said about Earl?

[sjm]

Originally Posted by Seth C.

Also, Shaw and SVB are “great” straight pool players? Neither one has played it much at all, has he? Perhaps the same can be said about Earl?

All three have medaled (SVB got beat by Appleton in the final a few years ago, Strickland lost the final to Immonen a couple of years ago and Shaw came third when a truly ridiculous ruling cost him his semifinal match a couple of years ago) in the Dragon Straight Pool event. Shane has run over 300 and Shaw 276, and Shaw has the current record run at the Derby City Classic 14.1 event of 227. These guys are great straight pool players and have shown it in competition. Earl, a serious straight pool player, has far more credentials in straight pool than either of them, is a strong pattern player, and has a lot of 100+ runs to his name in competition, although I don't know what his best is. Alex Pagulayan, like Shane and Jayson, is not very experienced at straight pool, but has shown some great form when he has played it, which is why he made my list.

[sjm]

Originally Posted by Seth C.

Okay ... so ... how would the combined list of all of the players you’ve noted above, including both those in the field and those not (total of 24), stack up against the top 24 in the actual fields in the US Opens held during the golden years of straight pool?

I think these twenty four, as a group, wouldn't be too far behind the most elite fields of the 1970's and early 1980's, but the top eleven in the actual field don't even nearly stack up to the top eleven of that era, (in my view, that's Mike Sigel, Steve Mizerak, Nick Varner, Jim Rempe, Pete Margo, Joe Balsis, Ray Martin, Lou Butera, Allen Hopkins, Dallas West, and Dan DiLiberto), every one of which was a ball running machine. Even the fringe guys in those fields like Larry Lisciotti, Dick Lane, Jack Colavita, Frank McGown, Pat Fleming and Irving Crane (who was still a world beater at 60 years old) could put the big hurt on any one of those eleven, and often did.

Of course, the biggest problem, one we've all noted, is that we don't seem to be able to manage to get the best twenty four straight poolers (as I defined them) in the same place at the same time, and the reason is because there is no sanctioned world championship in the discipline and relaitvely low prize money in the Dragon event.

[Seth C.]

Originally Posted by sjm

I think these twenty four, as a group, wouldn't be too far behind the most elite fields of the 1970's and early 1980's, but the top eleven in the actual field don't even nearly stack up to the top eleven of that era, (in my view, that's Mike Sigel, Steve Mizerak, Nick Varner, Jim Rempe, Pete Margo, Joe Balsis, Ray Martin, Lou Butera, Allen Hopkins, Dallas West, and Dan DiLiberto), every one of which was a ball running machine. Even the fringe guys in those fields like Larry Lisciotti, Dick Lane, Jack Colavita, Frank McGown, Pat Fleming and Irving Crane (who was still a world beater at 60 years old) could put the big hurt on any one of those eleven, and often did.

Of course, the biggest problem, one we've all noted, is that we don't seem to be able to manage to get the best twenty four straight poolers (as I defined them) in the same place at the same time, and the reason is because there is no sanctioned world championship in the discipline and relaitvely low prize money in the Dragon event.

I concur in this analysis, based on what I've read and seen (don't know much about, and haven't seen -- in person or on film -- some of the "fringe" players).

[Seth C.]

Originally Posted by sjm

All three have medaled (SVB got beat by Appleton in the final a few years ago, Strickland lost the final to Immonen a couple of years ago and Shaw came third when a truly ridiculous ruling cost him his semifinal match a couple of years ago) in the Dragon Straight Pool event. Shane has run over 300 and Shaw 276, and Shaw has the current record run at the Derby City Classic 14.1 event of 227. These guys are great straight pool players and have shown it in competition. Earl, a serious straight pool player, has far more credentials in straight pool than either of them, is a strong pattern player, and has a lot of 100+ runs to his name in competition, although I don't know what his best is. Alex Pagulayan, like Shane and Jayson, is not very experienced at straight pool, but has shown some great form when he has played it, which is why he made my list.

But I'm not fully buying this -- at least not when it comes to SVB and Shaw. Medaling one time doesn't a great straight pool player make, IMHO. Also, the video that I've seen of Shaw playing straight pool reveals a power player/shot maker supreme who has far too much "hit and hope" in his game to be ensured of consistent outcomes. I am in no way saying -- especially when it comes to SVB -- that there is less than strong potential for greatness in straight pool. Just look at how great they are in other games, based largely on supreme talent. But you have argued in the past (specifically when talking about Hohmann) that one needs to have produced a body of work -- and one that involved playing against strong/deep fields -- in order to be considered a true great in the lineup of straight pool players across the history of the game. That simply can't be said about these two players. Indeed, some of the specifics that you cite are the lengths of their runs, one of which (Shaw's 227) was offense only. How good is his safety game? Do we even have a basis to know?

[sjm]

Originally Posted by Seth C.

But I'm not fully buying this -- at least not when it comes to SVB and Shaw. Medaling one time doesn't a great straight pool player make, IMHO. Also, the video that I've seen of Shaw playing straight pool reveals a power player/shot maker supreme who has far too much "hit and hope" in his game to be ensured of consistent outcomes. I am in no way saying -- especially when it comes to SVB -- that there is less than strong potential for greatness in straight pool. Just look at how great they are in other games, based largely on supreme talent. But you have argued in the past (specifically when talking about Hohmann) that one needs to have produced a body of work -- and one that involved playing against strong/deep fields -- in order to be considered a true great in the lineup of straight pool players across the history of the game. That simply can't be said about these two players. Indeed, some of the specifics that you cite are the lengths of their runs, one of which (Shaw's 227) was offense only. How good is his safety game? Do we even have a basis to know?

No problem here with your point of view. I gave my slant on things, but some of this is subjective, and you make an excellent point about body of work.

Anyway, hope I've shed some light on this subject for you, as you specifically solicited my response in your original post.

[Seth C.]

Originally Posted by sjm

No problem here with your point of view. I gave my slant on things, but some of this is subjective, and you make an excellent point about body of work.

Anyway, hope I've shed some light on this subject for you, as you specifically solicited my response in your original post.

This is all good, and I appreciate your input. You come with convictions, which makes for good discussion and debate.

[sjm]

Originally Posted by Seth C.

This is all good, and I appreciate your input. You come with convictions, which makes for good discussion and debate.

Yes, it was an interesting exchange and I'm glad our online chat was conducted in a tone of mutual respect.

[AtLarge]

The tournament starts in about 15 hours.

Is it being streamed? Anyone know any streaming details, including schedule, commentators, number of tables, etc.

I see that Carom Cafe has webcams in the room. Will one or more of those be the tournament streaming source?

[Positively Ralf]

Originally Posted by AtLarge

The tournament starts in about 15 hours.

Is it being streamed? Anyone know any streaming details, including schedule, commentators, number of tables, etc.

I see that Carom Cafe has webcams in the room. Will one or more of those be the tournament streaming source?

Second this. Would like to know any details. As for the carom cams, I seriously doubt those will be the main streaming source. although kudos to them for having those cams installed for what seems like a decade now.

[AtLarge]

I just found this on Facebook, posted yesterday by Andy Lincoln (about today):

"Yes, player's meeting is at 11:00 am. Live stream will be posted in this group when it is set up just before noon."

The Facebook page is: https://www.facebook.com/groups/118839278130068