Deep Knowledge

Bob Jewett said:

Mosconi won some of the 12 challenge matches by over two to one ratios, such as this:

1956 Jan, WCM, 42 blocks of 150, Mosconi 6300, Caras 3007, 6 cities

The last 20 blocks of play could not have been a happy time for Caras. Imagine walking into the arena for the final block and hearing the announcement, "Tonight Mr. Caras will have to score three thousand, three hundred and twenty five points to win the match."

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host an open tournament with no entry fee in the phillippines.

Entry based on qualifying ability. a few rounds of play, then seed in the pool pros.

Its very doubtful these players would be competitive if there was no entry fee or transportation cost to attend these events for "World Titles"

I won't say the age or how bad I was beaten, but being priced out of a competition is a real thing.

What should it be called? The Filipino King of the Hill, all international players welcome to PI.

Bob Jewett said:

Mosconi won some of the 12 challenge matches by over two to one ratios, such as this:

1956 Jan, WCM, 42 blocks of 150, Mosconi 6300, Caras 3007, 6 cities

The last 20 blocks of play could not have been a happy time for Caras. Imagine walking into the arena for the final block and hearing the announcement, "Tonight Mr. Caras will have to score three thousand, three hundred and twenty five points to win the match."

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Carras is a local boy so I will come to his defense.
I don't believe Mosconi ever beat him in 14.1 on a 10 foot table.
I could be wrong.

If i remember right didn't Willie put the same type of beat down on Jimmy Moore and Lasitter? and a couple others.

Bob Jewett said:

In the link above to all of Mosconi's championship tourneys/matches, there is no match against Lassiter nor was Lassiter ever a runner-up in a tournament. Moore did have this long match with Mosconi:

1956 Mar, WCM, 12 blocks of 150, Mosconi 1800, Moore 879, Albuquerque

... slightly more than a 2 to 1 ratio.

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Willie beat Jimmy by 61 racks think about that for a minute.

Bob Jewett said:

It is publically available (or was before the lockdown) for a reasonable price of admission. I think John is entitled to that. Also, the entity that recognizes records in pool in the US has certified it. It will never be universally recognized, of course -- there will always be pickers of nits.

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My point is that probably the most iconic record in billiards needs to be vetted a little better. This is a major league kind of accomplishment, worthy of recognition in the NY Times. I do not think it is fair to say that skeptics are nit pickers. It is a big deal.

In Mosconi's time video wasn't practical so the next best thing was witness testimony. Now we have the run on video and so that video should eventually be put out there for public scrutiny. Until that time there is a cloud over the accomplishment. If this was the record for most spot shots in a row, I'd say fine, whatever the BCA says. This is different.

For the record I have to say that if you forced me to bet $1000 I'd say the run was legit and I have absolutely no problems with John. He's always been a real stand up guy when I've seen him. I just want to see it widely available for proof as this is likely to be a record for another half century or so.

Bob Jewett said:

... Here is the listing of his 19 World Championships including the format, locations and runners-up:

https://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=517711

It is remarkable that this list was never compiled before. Or maybe I missed it.

Willie won his 19 championships in one long league season, six multi-player round-robin tournaments, and 12 challenge matches, with the longest challenge match finishing with a score of 8727-7508 points against Caras. Anything worth doing is worth doing for weeks.

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Bob, at the end of Willie's autobiography (p. 245) is a list of his 19 championships. That list is not in quite as much detail as you posted, but Willie writes about each event in the book. I had started going through the book to prepare a list of all of his championship play, including events he did not win, but I will drop that now that you your list is posted. Good work.

Bob Jewett said:

... In the 1953 tournament the score was Mosconi 150 - Lassiter 33 in two innings. Mosconi's high run was 79 and Lassiter's was 33, so the match must have gone something like: Lassiter breaks, Mosconi ran 71 (or 79, but that's much less likely), Lassiter runs 33 and misses in the middle of a rack, Mosconi runs 79 (or 71) and out.

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Yes, the autobiography says Willie's runs were 79 (first) then 71 & out.

xradarx said:

Big questions for others, not Dan White.

Why do thread hi-jackers continue to just try to make bull salad out of bs?

16 Months and still no verifiable, unedited, video released for proof. Released doesn't mean controlled access by pre-paid, charged admission to a viewing.

Still just name calling by js supporters for the lack of verifiable proof of a claim to a hi-run straight pool world record from start of video to finish.
Video production is a multi-step process.
There is pre-production.
There is production.
There is post-production.

Just a few unanswered questions?
Why did it take a month to get the film to the BCA for review?
Why did it take weeks after BCA review to declare accreditation?
Why so long for NYT to acknowledge accomplishment?
Release the unedited video and then get ready for the REAL NIT-PICKERS.

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The autobiography says Willie played Lassiter many times, including on exhibition tours (beat him "seven straight times in his hometown") in North Carolina. They also played in Willie's 1956 championship win in Kinston, NC. But their matches were before Wimpy hit his stride in the 1960's.

AtLarge said:

The autobiography says Willie played Lassiter many times, including on exhibition tours (beat him "seven straight times in his hometown") in North Carolina. They also played in Willie's 1956 championship win in Kinston, NC. But their matches were before Wimpy hit is stride in the 1960's.

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I know Willie was not known for gambling.
But lets just say they played for a large sum of money in their day and both are in dead prime stroke who do you like?
If I'm a rail bird I'm betting on Lassiter.

I heard a story and I might have it not quite correct but here gos.
It's 1947 and Lassiter is playing a guy for $5K (you could buy a house for that then)
Lassiter needs 98 and the opponent needs 2.
Lassiter runs the 98 out.
I think thats how I heard it.
True or urban legend?

Bob Jewett said:

Absolutely correct. I was thinking of "match" in terms of challenge match. I don't think they ever played a challenge match and Ursitti doesn't record one.

In the 1953 tournament the score was Mosconi 150 - Lassiter 33 in two innings. Mosconi's high run was 79 and Lassiter's was 33, so the match must have gone something like: Lassiter breaks, Mosconi ran 71 (or 79, but that's much less likely), Lassiter runs 33 and misses in the middle of a rack, Mosconi runs 79 (or 71) and out.

Lassiter finished 4-4 in that event. The summary:

View attachment 557169

(EDIT)
I see they also played in the 1956 World Tournament in Kinston, NC. That was a double round robin of 8 players. The two Willie-Luther matches were:

Mosconi 150 - 141 Lassiter and
Mosconi 150 - 145 Lassiter

Mosconi finished 14-0 and Lassiter finished 6-8. Summary:

View attachment 557170

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It's cool to see these kind of records. I got into pool in the early 60's, and know the history pretty well since then, but not from before that. I do know that Johnny "Rags" Fitzpatrick died in 1960 at the age of 40. I never knew he played in any Straight Pool events until just now. Many old timers said he was the best One Pocket player of all time. Even Cincinnati Clem said he was the best he ever played.

measureman said:

I know Willie was not known for gambling.
But lets just say they played for a large sum of money in their day and both are in dead prime stroke who do you like?
If I'm a rail bird I'm betting on Lassiter.

I heard a story and I might have it not quite correct but here gos.
It's 1947 and Lassiter is playing a guy for $5K (you could buy a house for that then)
Lassiter needs 98 and the opponent needs 2.
Lassiter runs the 98 out.
I think thats how I heard it.
True or urban legend?

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I hear this kind of argument on here all the time and there is a fallacy to it. When players are playing in a tournament with serious prize money on the line (and no deals being made) it is virtually the same as if they were gambling. The only difference being the format of the match. The pressure is the same or greater and the money equally significant (or moreso) in a tournament as opposed to gambling, where they usually have backers putting up the money.

IMO the players who are capable of winning major tournaments are as good or better than the top gamblers, and more often than not (Shane, Dennis, Filler, Chang etc.) they are one and the same.

Mosconi was a better Straight Pool player than anyone else, including Lassiter. It's doubtful that Lassiter in his prime (yes he played great in the 1950's) would want to play a long Challenge match against Willie with big money on the line. If Crane and Caras couldn't beat him, what chance would Lassiter have had? He would have been a big underdog. And I have a lot of respect for Luther. He was acknowledged as the best 9-Ball player of his era and he became one of (if not #1) the top 14.1 players after Willie retired. His chief competition coming from Joe Balsis, Irving Crane (who had not yet retired), Cicero Murphy and Harold Worst. Jimmy Caras came out of a near ten year retirement to win the U.S. Open Straight Pool title in 1967. He was 57 at the time.

It's true that Willie didn't care for gambling. He felt that as the most well known player of his era he should keep a squeaky clean image and he did just that throughout his career. But if he had been pushed to play a challenge match for big money, I don't doubt for a second that he would have accepted the bet. I don't think anyone was too anxious to put up any money to see if their horse could beat Willie, for good reason. Willie was all about the money and he truly believed that no one could beat him. He proved that to be true many times over the course of twenty plus years.

You do know that Nicky Vacchiano trapped Willie in a 9-Ball game, getting the five and break on a 10' table in Philadelphia. The bet was $10,000 (5K a side). Funny thing happened though. Nicky had trouble making a ball on the break and Willie kept running out. In other words, he outran the nuts to win the money! That game was still being talked about when I was a newbie to pool in the early 60's.