Crooked stroke

Hinekanman

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
When I pull the cue back it pulls off line and it varies in which direction. When I go forward the cue doesn’t always comes through straight. Now if I physically concentrate on it I can keep it straight more consistently. I know there is the drill on the rail to do but I’m wondering is this a muscle memory thing I need to build up to stroke straight naturally? If so what drills and how often. Any help will be appreciated.


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Tony_in_MD

You want some of this?
Silver Member
A video of your stroke would sure help.



When I pull the cue back it pulls off line and it varies in which direction. When I go forward the cue doesn’t always comes through straight. Now if I physically concentrate on it I can keep it straight more consistently. I know there is the drill on the rail to do but I’m wondering is this a muscle memory thing I need to build up to stroke straight naturally? If so what drills and how often. Any help will be appreciated.


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One Pocket John

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
When I pull the cue back it pulls off line and it varies in which direction. When I go forward the cue doesn’t always comes through straight. Now if I physically concentrate on it I can keep it straight more consistently. I know there is the drill on the rail to do but I’m wondering is this a muscle memory thing I need to build up to stroke straight naturally? If so what drills and how often. Any help will be appreciated.


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I'm not an Instructor.

The two attached videos have helped me. I had the same issue. It is now corrected.

This first video is from Bert Kinister's Vol. 11
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGBFRln32uo

This second video was made by Thorsten Hohmann and Mike Massey.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPn3Wzp4NT8

I would recommend that you watch Bert's video first, then visit the second video and then return to watch Bert's video again.

I didn't know I had the issue you have until I did a frontal video of my cue stick delivery. Once detected I followed the information on the videos and corrected the problem.

Hope this helps ya. :)

John
 

bbb

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
use the seam between the cloth part of the rail and the rail
that is a straight line
practice SLOWLY going back and forth down this line
jmho
icbw
i am not an instructor
 

Low500

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
When I pull the cue back it pulls off line and it varies in which direction. When I go forward the cue doesn’t always comes through straight. Now if I physically concentrate on it I can keep it straight more consistently. I know there is the drill on the rail to do but I’m wondering is this a muscle memory thing I need to build up to stroke straight naturally? If so what drills and how often. Any help will be appreciated.
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This is merely a suggestion for open minded consideration. (the know-it-alls in here will guffaw and ridicule, but you can just imagine how much that will bother me).
Here we go....
About 6 years ago, I noticed problems with the same thing you're experiencing. Tried all kinds of drills,(especially Bert's...who is a great guy) went to eye doctors, etc. and then by pure luck stumbled on to something.
I twisted my lower back working under the hood of a car and the pain just wouldn't go away so after 4-5 days I went to a chiropractor.
First thing she did was x-ray my spine and the films revealed that over the years one side of my pelvis had become slightly lower than the other side. Not much, not much at all. But it made me think about my game and that crooked stroke that had crept into being.
She gave me a thin pad to go into the heel of my right shoe.
Immediately I could feel a difference.
When getting back on the pool table, I could see that there was no longer a crooked stroke....in fact it was like the days of my youth.
Now I don't promote a pad in a shoe or a chiropractic visit to be a panacea for all stroke problems, but it only stands to reason that if the head was out of alignment over that cue stick, then what I thought I was seeing was different from what I was actually doing. Resulting in a crooked stroke.
For someone who is serious about the game, it certainly solved an issue for me. One less variable out of the way. And the more variables I can eliminate, the better I like it.
Good wishes to you whatever you choose to do.
:thumbup:
 

greyghost

Coast to Coast
Silver Member
This is merely a suggestion for open minded consideration. (the know-it-alls in here will guffaw and ridicule, but you can just imagine how much that will bother me).

Here we go....

About 6 years ago, I noticed problems with the same thing you're experiencing. Tried all kinds of drills,(especially Bert's...who is a great guy) went to eye doctors, etc. and then by pure luck stumbled on to something.

I twisted my lower back working under the hood of a car and the pain just wouldn't go away so after 4-5 days I went to a chiropractor.

First thing she did was x-ray my spine and the films revealed that over the years one side of my pelvis had become slightly lower than the other side. Not much, not much at all. But it made me think about my game and that crooked stroke that had crept into being.

She gave me a thin pad to go into the heel of my right shoe.

Immediately I could feel a difference.

When getting back on the pool table, I could see that there was no longer a crooked stroke....in fact it was like the days of my youth.

Now I don't promote a pad in a shoe or a chiropractic visit to be a panacea for all stroke problems, but it only stands to reason that if the head was out of alignment over that cue stick, then what I thought I was seeing was different from what I was actually doing. Resulting in a crooked stroke.

For someone who is serious about the game, it certainly solved an issue for me. One less variable out of the way. And the more variables I can eliminate, the better I like it.

Good wishes to you whatever you choose to do.

:thumbup:



So all these years.....and the answer is heel wedges? 🤦*♂️ lol


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measureman

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I know a guy here in Denver,i call him run out Rick.
He pulls the cue to the inside on his back stroke but delivers it straight on the forward stroke.
And you better be able to play pretty good to beat him.
I struggle to keep up with him.
Of course hes a young guy of 63.
 

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
Gold Member
Silver Member
Practice deliberately slow strokes, concentrating on straightness. I mean super slow, an awkward slow motion, either while facing a mirror or stroking the cue over the seam between cushion and rail as bbb mentioned. This helps train the muscles to do the right thing each time.

I'm not a certified pool instructor, but this super slow method is used for muscle training in the best golf, tennis, and musical facilities around the world. In addition to slow deliberate movements, exaggerate the movements also -- go well beyond what feels comfortable for a backstroke, and well beyond a normal follow through. This allows your brain to recognize normal limitations of the stroke. By watching yourself in a mirror, or looking down at that table seam, you see the results of each exaggerated stroke and can back off a little at a time until the movements at the extreme back and forward positions feel more natural. You'll notice by trying to go too far in both directions that you'll get a better feel of control when you settle into a more normal back and forward motion.

The digicue blue is a great device that allows for real time feedback. If you have the extra cash to invest, about $150, it's well worth the price. If there's an instructor in or near your area it would be very beneficial to get some input there. As far as practicing the super slow motion movements (while being able to see/monitor your stroke), it's best to do it 5 to 10 minutes 3 or 4 times per day, rather than drilling yourself for hours at a time.
 

BilliardsAbout

BondFanEvents.com
Silver Member
This is merely a suggestion for open minded consideration. (the know-it-alls in here will guffaw and ridicule, but you can just imagine how much that will bother me).
Here we go....
About 6 years ago, I noticed problems with the same thing you're experiencing. Tried all kinds of drills,(especially Bert's...who is a great guy) went to eye doctors, etc. and then by pure luck stumbled on to something.
I twisted my lower back working under the hood of a car and the pain just wouldn't go away so after 4-5 days I went to a chiropractor.
First thing she did was x-ray my spine and the films revealed that over the years one side of my pelvis had become slightly lower than the other side. Not much, not much at all. But it made me think about my game and that crooked stroke that had crept into being.
She gave me a thin pad to go into the heel of my right shoe.
Immediately I could feel a difference.
When getting back on the pool table, I could see that there was no longer a crooked stroke....in fact it was like the days of my youth.
Now I don't promote a pad in a shoe or a chiropractic visit to be a panacea for all stroke problems, but it only stands to reason that if the head was out of alignment over that cue stick, then what I thought I was seeing was different from what I was actually doing. Resulting in a crooked stroke.
For someone who is serious about the game, it certainly solved an issue for me. One less variable out of the way. And the more variables I can eliminate, the better I like it.
Good wishes to you whatever you choose to do.
:thumbup:

Not silly at all, a good check. The eyes and brain can adjust to most anything, even to inverting prolonged upside down viewing of the world!

Your eyes told you the stick was level when you were sawing away at an angle.

Good job.
 

BilliardsAbout

BondFanEvents.com
Silver Member
Practice deliberately slow strokes, concentrating on straightness. I mean super slow, an awkward slow motion, either while facing a mirror or stroking the cue over the seam between cushion and rail as bbb mentioned. This helps train the muscles to do the right thing each time.

I'm not a certified pool instructor, but this super slow method is used for muscle training in the best golf, tennis, and musical facilities around the world. In addition to slow deliberate movements, exaggerate the movements also -- go well beyond what feels comfortable for a backstroke, and well beyond a normal follow through. This allows your brain to recognize normal limitations of the stroke. By watching yourself in a mirror, or looking down at that table seam, you see the results of each exaggerated stroke and can back off a little at a time until the movements at the extreme back and forward positions feel more natural. You'll notice by trying to go too far in both directions that you'll get a better feel of control when you settle into a more normal back and forward motion.

The digicue blue is a great device that allows for real time feedback. If you have the extra cash to invest, about $150, it's well worth the price. If there's an instructor in or near your area it would be very beneficial to get some input there. As far as practicing the super slow motion movements (while being able to see/monitor your stroke), it's best to do it 5 to 10 minutes 3 or 4 times per day, rather than drilling yourself for hours at a time.

The flip of this is to stroke back and forth super fast, working on a super light grip and super smooth action. Other body efforts (speaking, singing) use this training method.

By practicing wicked fast, then slowing to regular speed in practice, you gain a tremendous awareness through the regular stroke.
 

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
Gold Member
Silver Member
The flip of this is to stroke back and forth super fast, working on a super light grip and super smooth action. Other body efforts (speaking, singing) use this training method.

By practicing wicked fast, then slowing to regular speed in practice, you gain a tremendous awareness through the regular stroke.

Yes. That's a very common technique in lead and classical guitar, or violin. First you very slowly program your fingers to do the required motions of a particular phrase you're trying to learn (like a difficult fingering pattern). Do this very slowly and deliberately. After you have each movement locked into memory and can play it slowly with no errors, you are ready to play it faster, a little faster than you can actually do it. Not super fast with complete disregard for mistakes, but fast enough that you feel like you're hitting it with about 60 to 70 % accuracy.

This allows you to focus on the parts that are giving you the most trouble. Go back over these particular parts with slow and deliberate movements again, over and over to train your fingers and your brain to work it out. Then play the whole piece again at a faster pace.

The same method is used in tennis, golf, and other sports in some of the greatest training facilities in the world, the places that typically produce the most champion. There's no reason to believe the method won't work for pool players in all aspects that require muscle memory.
 

greyghost

Coast to Coast
Silver Member
I'm not an Instructor.



The two attached videos have helped me. I had the same issue. It is now corrected.



This first video is from Bert Kinister's Vol. 11

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGBFRln32uo



This second video was made by Thorsten Hohmann and Mike Massey.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPn3Wzp4NT8



I would recommend that you watch Bert's video first, then visit the second video and then return to watch Bert's video again.



I didn't know I had the issue you have until I did a frontal video of my cue stick delivery. Once detected I followed the information on the videos and corrected the problem.



Hope this helps ya. :)



John



The second one should be a glove and boots episode


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Lockbox

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
When I pull the cue back it pulls off line and it varies in which direction. When I go forward the cue doesn’t always comes through straight. Now if I physically concentrate on it I can keep it straight more consistently. I know there is the drill on the rail to do but I’m wondering is this a muscle memory thing I need to build up to stroke straight naturally? If so what drills and how often. Any help will be appreciated.


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First off, i'm not an instructor. My question for the instructors is with regards to all of the replies to this initial post. Isn't any response to this query short of (1) get an instructor to diagnose issues and then (2) practice for years just a gimmicky bandaid?

A purely straight stroke is surely not something you can just "get" by doing this or that - it must take years of practice and instruction. I'm not trying to dissuade conversation here, but really what do replies to this post short of instruction + practice really do?

I guess my real issue is that proper technique is not just about "knowing" how to do something, but years of practice and effort to perfect it. Right?
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
...
I guess my real issue is that proper technique is not just about "knowing" how to do something, but years of practice and effort to perfect it. Right?

OK, but there are better and worse ways to practice in terms of how long it's going to take you to learn or re-learn a repeatable stroke. I think it's definitely worth discussing learning techniques.

As for it taking "a few years" to gain a straight stroke, I don't agree. It can take a few years to fix a crooked stroke, or maybe even a few decades. I think that if a new player sets out to develop a straight, consistent stroke from the beginning, it will happen a lot faster.
 

greyghost

Coast to Coast
Silver Member
First off, i'm not an instructor. My question for the instructors is with regards to all of the replies to this initial post. Isn't any response to this query short of (1) get an instructor to diagnose issues and then (2) practice for years just a gimmicky bandaid?



A purely straight stroke is surely not something you can just "get" by doing this or that - it must take years of practice and instruction. I'm not trying to dissuade conversation here, but really what do replies to this post short of instruction + practice really do?



I guess my real issue is that proper technique is not just about "knowing" how to do something, but years of practice and effort to perfect it. Right?



Yes....tho simple movements there’s a lot of minutia going on


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BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
Gold Member
Silver Member
First off, i'm not an instructor. My question for the instructors is with regards to all of the replies to this initial post. Isn't any response to this query short of (1) get an instructor to diagnose issues and then (2) practice for years just a gimmicky bandaid?

A purely straight stroke is surely not something you can just "get" by doing this or that - it must take years of practice and instruction. I'm not trying to dissuade conversation here, but really what do replies to this post short of instruction + practice really do?

I guess my real issue is that proper technique is not just about "knowing" how to do something, but years of practice and effort to perfect it. Right?

I agree, but it wouldn't take years to develop a perfect stroke. It's a matter of muscle memory as defined by proprioceptors in our limbs that let the brain know exactly where and at what position our body parts are in at any given moment. Repeating the same movements over and over is what creates muscle memory. By watching our cue or stroke arm we add another sense (vision) to the memory building process, providing real time feedback and defining limitations.

It's no different than learning how to walk or ride a bike. We use our senses (physical and visual) to program our muscles to repeat certain actions. It doesn't matter if you're learning to hit a backhand on the tennis court or to play a blues lick on a guitar, or write out the alphabet with a crayon....it's programmed muscle memory and it doesn't take years to develop. Weeks is more like it. With some people, the more hands-on creative types, it may only take a few days to build excellent skills involving muscle memory and hand-eye coordination. I've seen it happen.
 
Last edited:

BilliardsAbout

BondFanEvents.com
Silver Member
First off, i'm not an instructor. My question for the instructors is with regards to all of the replies to this initial post. Isn't any response to this query short of (1) get an instructor to diagnose issues and then (2) practice for years just a gimmicky bandaid?

A purely straight stroke is surely not something you can just "get" by doing this or that - it must take years of practice and instruction. I'm not trying to dissuade conversation here, but really what do replies to this post short of instruction + practice really do?

I guess my real issue is that proper technique is not just about "knowing" how to do something, but years of practice and effort to perfect it. Right?

Yes, I agree, it is a gimmicky bandaid. I've had students tell me so-and-so or this-one-or-that-one said this one precise way is the only way to ever stand and stroke and then to "go and practice 2-3 hours daily for 6 months". I can play with my toes practicing that much at some level of competency.

Good instructors can straighten a stroke quickly with the aid of the student, since the student must commit to a straight stroke despite missing shots. A lot of swervy strokes are subconscious adjustment for false alignment. A student must be willing to commit to a straight stroke, then work to bring aim back in line--but it can be done very fast with thoughtful practice.
 

Hinekanman

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Yes, I agree, it is a gimmicky bandaid. I've had students tell me so-and-so or this-one-or-that-one said this one precise way is the only way to ever stand and stroke and then to "go and practice 2-3 hours daily for 6 months". I can play with my toes practicing that much at some level of competency.



Good instructors can straighten a stroke quickly with the aid of the student, since the student must commit to a straight stroke despite missing shots. A lot of swervy strokes are subconscious adjustment for false alignment. A student must be willing to commit to a straight stroke, then work to bring aim back in line--but it can be done very fast with thoughtful practice.



I agree with this to some degree now. I have started forcing myself to stroke straight and missing has come into it but it is starting to turn around amazingly enough. The muscle memory is not there yet but it’s progressing. By analyzing my game it’s something to do with alignment and steering to make the shot. When I practice the stroke I can go fairly straight but when behind the cue ball on the shot it gets so wobbly but I know the wobble usually starts to steer to make the ball because I’m not lined up right but I know where to hit the object ball. It will take time but progress is being made.


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Ralph Kramden

BOOM!.. ZOOM!.. MOON!
Silver Member
OK, but there are better and worse ways to practice in terms of how long it's going to take you to learn or re-learn a repeatable stroke. I think it's definitely worth discussing learning techniques.

As for it taking "a few years" to gain a straight stroke, I don't agree. It can take a few years to fix a crooked stroke, or maybe even a few decades. I think that if a new player sets out to develop a straight, consistent stroke from the beginning, it will happen a lot faster.

I agree with Bob totally.
I played for years with a slight chicken wing stroke and a elbow drop.

I was young and I played a lot at the YMCA. The table was high and
my stroke was compromised when I had to stretch to hit the cue ball.

As years passed my stroking became much smoother and straighter,
but at times a pressure shot would bring out my same ol' elbow drop.

.
 

BilliardsAbout

BondFanEvents.com
Silver Member
A further thought, likely only worth my two cents:

If I had a nickel for every student or potential student (!) who told me, "Buh-buh-but I pocket a lot of balls . . . "

It is a maxim of mine that amateurs must be willing to miss a few balls as they pursue a new stroke, stance or aim system. Most systems I teach give immediate shot making improvement, however, people with crooked and swerving strokes must be willing to commit to a straight line stroke than miss a few or else what?

Or else they will swerve to pocket balls, consciously or subconciously and so never, ever learn how far off their aiming is.
 
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