Pivot Points of Carbon Fiber Shafts

podsbilliards · Jul 19, 2019

Hi All, I'm in the market for a carbon fiber shaft and was wondering what the pivot points are on all the different brands available. Dr. Dave did a video on pivot points a while back that included a Revo (not sure if it was the 12.4 or 12.9 or if it matters) and the Cuetec Cynergy. Attached is the video of how to measure the pivot point. The Revo that he tested was 19" and the Cuetec was 13". Any feedback would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

https://billiards.colostate.edu/faq/cue/natural-pivot-length/

dr_dave · Jul 19, 2019

podsbilliards said:
Dr. Dave did a video on pivot points a while back that included a Revo (not sure if it was the 12.4 or 12.9 or if it matters) and the Cuetec Cynergy.

FYI, the Revo in the video on the natural pivot length resource page was a 12.4.

FYI, some people think your bridge length should match the natural pivot length of your shaft. This is not the case, except maybe for a break cue. My Revo has a natural pivot length of 19" but I use a 12" bridge length. My SAWS system for aiming with sidespin, based on using combinations of BHE and FHE, can be used with any shaft and any bridge length; although, an LD shaft does offer some advantages.

Regards,
Dave

jtaylor996 · Jul 19, 2019

dr_dave said:
FYI, the Revo in the video on the natural pivot length resource page was a 12.4.

FYI, some people think your bridge length should match the natural pivot length of your shaft. This is not the case, except maybe for a break cue. My Revo has a natural pivot length of 19" but I use a 12" bridge length. My SAWS system for aiming with sidespin, based on using combinations of BHE and FHE, can be used with any shaft and any bridge length; although, an LD shaft does offer some advantages.

Regards,
Dave

Dave, do you have an update of that table you did years ago measuring deflection for different brands of shafts?

dr_dave · Jul 19, 2019

jtaylor996 said:
Dave, do you have an update of that table you did years ago measuring deflection for different brands of shafts?

I do not have an update to the shaft comparison table, nor do I plan to do one in the foreseeable future, but anybody can easily test and compare shafts on their own using the simple procedure on the natural pivot length resource page.

Regards,
Dave

Patrick Johnson · Jul 19, 2019

dr_dave said:
I do not have an update to the shaft comparison table, nor do I plan to do one in the foreseeable future, but anybody can easily test and compare shafts on their own using the simple procedure on the natural pivot length resource page.

Regards,
Dave

Don't know if I ever posted this graph I made of the data in that chart.

The categorizations (Low Deflection, Normal, High Deflection) are mine - you might group things a little differently.

Also, here's Dr. Dave's note about the pivot points: "NOTE – The “pivot point” data below is the “effective pivot length” for the given shot distance, shot speed, cue elevation, amount of sidespin, and conditions. It is not the natural pivot length of the shaft."

pj
chgo

poolhustler · Jul 19, 2019

Why do you need a pivot point? Why don't you just use a straight stroke?

Patrick Johnson · Jul 19, 2019

poolhustler said:
Why do you need a pivot point? Why don't you just use a straight stroke?

Don't know if you're kidding or not, but here's the serious answer...

A "pivot point" isn't used to pivot your cue while stroking (although some do that in the mistaken belief it helps with spin). It's the point on your shaft where you can pivot your cue until it's pointed at whatever sidespin contact point you want - and then stroke straight at the contact point - to compensate your aim the right amount for the squirt produced by that cue (ignoring swerve).

Doing that is called using "backhand english".

pj
chgo

BRussell · Jul 19, 2019

Patrick Johnson said:
Don't know if you're kidding or not, but here's the serious answer...

A "pivot point" isn't used to pivot your cue while stroking (although some do that in the mistaken belief it helps with spin). It's the point on your shaft where you can pivot your cue until it's pointed at whatever sidespin contact point you want - and then stroke straight at the contact point - to compensate your aim the right amount for the squirt produced by that cue (ignoring swerve).

Doing that is called using "backhand english".

pj
chgo

It also might just be used as a good metric for a cue’s deflection even if you never pivot for English.

jrctherake · Jul 19, 2019

podsbilliards said:
Hi All, I'm in the market for a carbon fiber shaft and was wondering what the pivot points are on all the different brands available. Dr. Dave did a video on pivot points a while back that included a Revo (not sure if it was the 12.4 or 12.9 or if it matters) and the Cuetec Cynergy. Attached is the video of how to measure the pivot point. The Revo that he tested was 19" and the Cuetec was 13". Any feedback would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

https://billiards.colostate.edu/faq/cue/natural-pivot-length/

I wouldn't worry about the pivot point. Instead, I would worry about the balance point, diameter of butt and shaft, the taper length and type.....you know????..... the stuff that actually matters.

Patrick Johnson · Jul 19, 2019

BRussell said:
It also might just be used as a good metric for a cue’s deflection even if you never pivot for English.

Yes. To visualize that here's a graphic that shows the different amounts of squirt produced by shafts with different pivot points.

The dashed arrows show the amount of maximum squirt after 75" of CB travel using shafts with pivot points of 6" (high squirt), 10" (average squirt), and 14" (low squirt).

pj
chgo

poolhustler · Jul 19, 2019

Patrick Johnson said:
Don't know if you're kidding or not, but here's the serious answer...

A "pivot point" isn't used to pivot your cue while stroking (although some do that in the mistaken belief it helps with spin). It's the point on your shaft where you can pivot your cue until it's pointed at whatever sidespin contact point you want - and then stroke straight at the contact point - to compensate your aim the right amount for the squirt produced by that cue (ignoring swerve).

Doing that is called using "backhand english".

pj
chgo

Ohhhhh so that aiming stuff that people try to use... got it … thanks!

BRussell · Jul 19, 2019

Patrick Johnson said:
Yes. To visualize that here's a graphic that shows the different amounts of squirt produced by shafts with different pivot points.

The smaller arrows at the right end of the table show the amount of maximum squirt after 100" of CB travel using shafts with pivot points of 6" (very high squirt), 8" (high squirt), 10" (average squirt), 14" (low squirt) & 20" (very low squirt).

pj

chgo

View attachment 525090

I think a nice way to test and describe a cue would be as an observed pivot point plus a mathematically figured amount of deflection you’d get with parallel English at a standard shot range. Like “the Revo has a 19 inch pivot point which is 1.2 inches of deflection at 5 feet.”

Patrick Johnson · Jul 19, 2019

BRussell said:
I think a nice way to test and describe a cue would be as an observed pivot point plus a mathematically figured amount of deflection you’d get with parallel English at a standard shot range. Like “the Revo has a 19 inch pivot point which is 1.2 inches of deflection at 5 feet.”

You’d have to specify the amount of spin (probably max), and you could express it as so much squirt per diamond of CB travel, like “PP:12.5 in, 9/16 in max squirt per diamond of CB travel”.

As this illustrates, the pivot point itself is equal to the amount of CB travel it takes for squirt to equal tip offset.

pj
chgo

dr_dave · Jul 20, 2019

Patrick Johnson said:
You’d have to specify the amount of spin (probably max), and you could express it as so much squirt per diamond of CB travel, like “PP:12.5 in, 9/16 in max squirt per diamond of CB travel”.

As this illustrates, the pivot point itself is equal to the amount of CB travel it takes for squirt to equal tip offset.

Net CB deflection (combined effects of squirt and swerve) and effective pivot length depends on too many factors (shot speed, shot distance, cue elevation, type and amount of spin, and cloth conditions). That’s why I prefer a natural pivot length measurement instead using the procedure on the resource page. That way, everybody should get the same number for a given shaft, regardless of the amount of spin.

Regards,
Dave

nataddrho · Jul 20, 2019

poolhustler said:
Ohhhhh so that aiming stuff that people try to use... got it … thanks!

It's not aiming stuff, it's a discussion of the anatomy of equipment and a pool stroke. No one needs to break apart a pool stroke into components, but intelligent minds like to analyze. Focusing on specific components independently can be more successful than focusing on the whole.

When actually playing for cash, the entire process should be as thoughtless and organic as walking. That is everyone's goal.

Patrick Johnson · Jul 20, 2019

dr_dave said:
Net CB deflection (combined effects of squirt and swerve) and effective pivot length depends on too many factors (shot speed, shot distance, cue elevation, type and amount of spin, and cloth conditions). That’s why I prefer a natural pivot length measurement instead using the procedure on the resource page. That way, everybody should get the same number for a given shaft, regardless of the amount of spin.

Regards,
Dave

Yes, BRussel's and my descriptions of the physical effects are based on the natural pivot length (level cue, no swerve).

pj
chgo

JohnnyP · Jul 20, 2019

jrctherake said:
I wouldn't worry about the pivot point. Instead, I would worry about the balance point, diameter of butt and shaft, the taper length and type.....you know????..... the stuff that actually matters.

All that is a given. Everyone wants a good feeling cue, but you are missing out on the fun of aiming with spin.

I used to try to do it by feel and guesswork, then I tried aim and pivot. It's amazing how much easier it is. High inside is fun! Lose the draw, go forward, young man.

dr_dave · Jul 20, 2019

Patrick Johnson said:
Yes, BRussel's and my descriptions of the physical effects are based on the natural pivot length (level cue, no swerve).

Got it. But to be clear, the "pivot points" in the shaft comparison table mentioned earlier (and in your plots) are not natural pivot lengths. They are "effective pivot points" for a given shot speed, shot speed, cue elevation, amount of spin, and conditions.

Regards,
Dave

Patrick Johnson · Jul 20, 2019

dr_dave said:
Got it. But to be clear, the "pivot points" in the shaft comparison table mentioned earlier (and in your plots) are not natural pivot lengths. They are "effective pivot points" for a given shot speed, shot speed, cue elevation, amount of spin, and conditions.

Regards,
Dave

So Platinum (who produced the data) didn't use a level cue? I suppose that's inevitable if you're testing on a table with rails. Thanks for the heads up - I added your caveat to my post with the chart.

By the way, Platinum says the tip was offset two distances (6mm and 12mm) for the tests, but they only report one result. I calculated the resulting effective pivot points using an assumed 9mm offset (average of 6 and 12) - does that make sense to you? The results are slightly different from Platinum's...

pj
chgo

dr_dave · Jul 20, 2019

Patrick Johnson said:
dr_dave said:

Got it. But to be clear, the "pivot points" in the shaft comparison table mentioned earlier (and in your plots) are not natural pivot lengths. They are "effective pivot points" for a given shot speed, shot speed, cue elevation, amount of spin, and conditions.

Click to expand...

So Platinum (who produced the data) didn't use a level cue? I suppose that's inevitable if you're testing on a table with rails.

Honestly, I don't know. I just assumed so since the numbers are low compared to natural pivot length tests I've done. Maybe somebody who knows for sure (maybe Bob Jewett) can let us know.

Patrick Johnson said:
By the way, Platinum says the tip was offset two distances (6mm and 12mm) for the tests, but they only report one result. I calculated the resulting effective pivot points using an assumed 9mm offset (average of 6 and 12) - does that make sense to you? The results are slightly different from Platinum's...

The only thing that "makes sense" to me is to use a perfectly level cue and/or fast speed and short distance to measure the actual natural pivot length. Only then will everybody's numbers be comparable.

Regards,
Dave

Pivot Points of Carbon Fiber Shafts

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