nine on the spot
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evergruven
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nine on the spot - 08-09-2020, 06:26 AM

and breaking from "the box" were rules put in place
to make break result less predictable/effective for the breaker
is that right?

watching replays of all these (great) accu-stats vids
it seems the breaker is usually making a wing ball
and/or the one is falling into the side pocket
the biggest disadvantage that I can see
is that because they're using a cut break to make balls
the cue ball scratches more often/gets lost
than if players were squatting the rock

wondering two things:
is this analysis accurate?
and
given the experience we've had with these rules
should nine on the spot still be the status quo?

as a (related) aside, the "compliance" rule drives me nuts..
nothing worse that a player hittin em good, and getting no love
because their break was "non-compliant"


A billiard table is that richest of metaphors,
by turns a theatre, an altar, touchstone, gauntlet,
ritual ground, a gunfighter's high noon, a refuge,
a verdant landscape for balls to scatter and rest in meaningful synchronicity,
a classroom, a karma dance, mirror of moods, a guide and trusted friend...

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Tony_in_MD
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08-09-2020, 06:33 AM

Yes it was done to halt the wing ball from going, off the break. However it lead to players adjusting their break stroke to make the 1 in the side. The only answer to the 9 ball break is to play 10 ball.

Quote:
Originally Posted by evergruven View Post
and breaking from "the box" were rules put in place
to make break result less predictable/effective for the breaker
is that right?

watching replays of all these (great) accu-stats vids
it seems the breaker is usually making a wing ball
and/or the one is falling into the side pocket
the biggest disadvantage that I can see
is that because they're using a cut break to make balls
the cue ball scratches more often/gets lost
than if players were squatting the rock

wondering two things:
is this analysis accurate?
and
given the experience we've had with these rules
should nine on the spot still be the status quo?

as a (related) aside, the "compliance" rule drives me nuts..
nothing worse that a player hittin em good, and getting no love
because their break was "non-compliant"


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ctyhntr
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08-09-2020, 07:52 AM

On the pro level, template racks with pattern racking becomes too predictable. A wing ball goes in on practically every break, moving the 9-ball to the spot brings back the element of chance.


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08-09-2020, 09:23 AM

Phone app.

Hit the button; randomly determines ball and rack placement. One and 9/10/whatever game ball can appear anywhere in the rack.

Options to cover what happens if one ball is inside the pack. Auto win or loss or if it must even be struck on the break etc...
  
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08-09-2020, 12:17 PM

The pro events should move to 10 ball. Even with moving the rack around and putting in dumb rules for a hard break the players still can aim for a ball to go in off the break and get a good layout.

The 3 point rule is as bad as allowing jump cues in pro events, it just ends up punishing players that got some bad rolls at the break. Hit normal break speed, make a ball, then sit and watch the opponent run out because a ball hit the side point or was kicked away. Horrible idea to prevent soft breaking.

Alternate break and longer races can also help with 9 ball, but of-course those also have their draw-backs. Really the only "fix" for 9 ball that does not create other issues is to play 10 ball LOL


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Last edited by hang-the-9; 08-09-2020 at 12:19 PM.
  
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evergruven
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08-09-2020, 01:54 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ctyhntr View Post
On the pro level, template racks with pattern racking becomes too predictable. A wing ball goes in on practically every break, moving the 9-ball to the spot brings back the element of chance.
players are making a wing ball with the nine on the spot tho
with the cut break, they're making a wing ball, and the one tracks to the side
big difference I see is that with the cut break, the cb gets loose
and sometimes bad/less predictable things happen that way
I'm not sure it's worth it. there's chance in nine ball already
in tennis, even a bad server holds more often than not
same in nine-ball..the breaker usually "holds serve"
that's not unreasonable, I don't think..and then, yea
once in awhile, something happens that flips the script
fair play, I think

I like ten-ball, too
but I don't think we need to do away with nine-ball
just because *most* of the time, the breaker wins their games


A billiard table is that richest of metaphors,
by turns a theatre, an altar, touchstone, gauntlet,
ritual ground, a gunfighter's high noon, a refuge,
a verdant landscape for balls to scatter and rest in meaningful synchronicity,
a classroom, a karma dance, mirror of moods, a guide and trusted friend...

-- from grissim's "billiards"
  
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Straightpool_99
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08-09-2020, 02:03 PM

9 on the spot does bring an element of skill to the break. It seems the speed/hit window to make the corner ball is smaller with the 9 on the spot and a box. With 1 on the spot and template racks (especially magic rack), the corner ball seems to go at a much wider range of speeds and hits. As has allready been pointed out, with 9 on the spot and a box, you must cut break, which does tend to make the cueball less controlled, and it's kind of finicky when it comes to speed.

I still think 10 ball is better as far as the break is concerned.
  
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evergruven
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08-09-2020, 02:33 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Straightpool_99 View Post
9 on the spot does bring an element of skill to the break. It seems the speed/hit window to make the corner ball is smaller with the 9 on the spot and a box. With 1 on the spot and template racks (especially magic rack), the corner ball seems to go at a much wider range of speeds and hits.
I appreciate the way you described this, thanks
I can see that using the cut break might require focus and skill
not as nuanced as with the typical head-ball break
but I'm still not convinced it's worth the extra security

what if the nine was racked on the spot
but no break box, break from wherever you like?
I wonder how that would affect things


A billiard table is that richest of metaphors,
by turns a theatre, an altar, touchstone, gauntlet,
ritual ground, a gunfighter's high noon, a refuge,
a verdant landscape for balls to scatter and rest in meaningful synchronicity,
a classroom, a karma dance, mirror of moods, a guide and trusted friend...

-- from grissim's "billiards"
  
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Tin Man
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08-09-2020, 02:46 PM

The fact that we have struggled with breaking rules for over 50 years is absurd.

First it was rack for your opponent with a wood rack. People practiced slugging each other and argued about the rack.

Then it was rack for yourself. Opponents whined about you wiring up the wing ball.

Then it was sardo rack one on the spot. Corey Deuel showed that was a joke.

Then tried the box one on the spot. That was countered with the cut break.

Then templates came out. It got worse.

We went to 10 ball. SVB showed he can make 2 balls and perch the one on the lip of the top corner with everything spread. No better.

Currently we are using the 9 on the spot. You are right, this makes it more difficult to control the cue ball on the cut break. But Sky Woodward has this down and took 3rd in the US International Open a couple of years ago and won DCC because of it.


The point...I have 3-5 ways to reasonably solve this issue once and for all that would also decrease the massive role the break plays in determining the winners in a contest that should emphasize game play skills. But any of you could solve this. When you make the rules this shouldn't be that hard. The ONLY reason this is still in play is because the tournament directors and promoters must have a vested interest in keeping the game this way.

Maybe if the break played less a role the same players would win too much and entries would decline. Certainly fans like seeing fast matches with big packages. Matches go quicker and tournaments can run faster (with the same length sets). I can't think of any other reason. But I refuse to believe TDs for 50 years can't stop the break, so I have to assume they like the outcomes of matches to be 50% based on a frozen combo start shot.


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evergruven
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08-09-2020, 02:59 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tin Man View Post

Currently we are using the 9 on the spot. You are right, this makes it more difficult to control the cue ball on the cut break. But Sky Woodward has this down and took 3rd in the US International Open a couple of years ago and won DCC because of it.


The point...I have 3-5 ways to reasonably solve this issue once and for all that would also decrease the massive role the break plays in determining the winners in a contest that should emphasize game play skills. But any of you could solve this. When you make the rules this shouldn't be that hard. The ONLY reason this is still in play is because the tournament directors and promoters must have a vested interest in keeping the game this way.

Maybe if the break played less a role the same players would win too much and entries would decline. Certainly fans like seeing fast matches with big packages. Matches go quicker and tournaments can run faster (with the same length sets). I can't think of any other reason. But I refuse to believe TDs for 50 years can't stop the break, so I have to assume they like the outcomes of matches to be 50% based on a frozen combo start shot.
yea I just watched sky and dennis go at it on accu-stats intl. open '18 I think
he was breaking great and the two was coming around for him too
I just don't get the fuss..pool at the highest level is decided by a shot or two anyway
just let the players play..with nine or ten balls on the table, even with a great break
something is bound to get caught up, or a player loses focus, anything could happen
I was watching a video where ko ping chung was commentating on his own match
and he said something to the effect of
"it's the easy layouts you can mess up..don't take them for granted"
so nobody's perfect, if these players are shooting .900+ anyway
let them be challenged by the task of breaking good and running out
stop putting all these finicky little rules on it and let them shoot pool


A billiard table is that richest of metaphors,
by turns a theatre, an altar, touchstone, gauntlet,
ritual ground, a gunfighter's high noon, a refuge,
a verdant landscape for balls to scatter and rest in meaningful synchronicity,
a classroom, a karma dance, mirror of moods, a guide and trusted friend...

-- from grissim's "billiards"
  
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My opinion-wonít be popular - 08-09-2020, 03:04 PM

Been around game over 40 years. Everything tin man said is true, so....here goes.
Pool is a game, not a sport. Games are played to be fun for the players.
Sports are played for fans.
Pool is a game.
10 ball is a joke except for the pros who run out anyways.
3 shot is a joke
All these shortstops and worse trying play 10 ball is a joke.

So, smart Alec. Whatís the answer? Glad you asked.
Rollout. Winner breaks. Cue ball scratch-BIH
9 ball or better yet 6 ballóó-bet it cheap or bet it high....thatís players business.
Match up as you choose-have fun.
This nit nat safety play is garbage.
Give me buddy hall, Keith mccready, earl, Louie Roberts, or a hundred other playing rollout 9 ball betting it up and playing ahead sets or by the game.
Thatís fun to play and watch.
Comments welcome-just be nice
  
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