Touching the ONE-BALL in a 9-Ball Rack Creates an ADVANTAGE - Is This "Cheating" ?

Floppage

True Beginner
Silver Member
So you only find fault in the person asking for a re-rack?

I watched half the Saez v Ignacio match and only once did Ignacio ask for a re-rack. all the other times he gave it a quick glance (which he should do!) and then he went to break. Saez glanced at the rack just as much. Morris just tried pulling some half ass lazy racking attempts and the guy called him out on it. Move on.

That's not at all what I said.

The match they switched to after the Shaw/Archer match was over had another player asking for a re-rack. I may not be great at racking but I thought players at this level had it pretty well covered. Either I'm wrong and it's harder than I think or there are a lot of players intentionally trying to loose rack each other.

Edit: and the same guy just asked for another rack. I feel like that's an excessive number of racking requests for any tournament that we've only seen two tables on the streaming. What is it like for the other matches?
 
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BeiberLvr

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
9 pages, and the word "aiming" was only mentioned once. Twice now.

So why was this moved to the Aiming (3 times) forum?

Seriously, mods. Lay off the Eggnog. Christmas is over.
 

SUPERSTAR

I am Keyser Söze
Silver Member
Just make touching the 1ball after the rack is lifted, and LOSS OF GAME and watch as everyones vision magically returns to normal and the 1 frozen to the top balls no longer presents an issue.

Just watch.

Obviously, no TD 'cept for maybe Zuglan has the stones to do this, but if all the tournament directors suddenly grew a set, you watch as the players all fall in line, and shut up.
 

SUPERSTAR

I am Keyser Söze
Silver Member
That's what Turning Stone did and last night Rodney Morris had to rerack so many times it looked like he was filming a "how to" video on it. Even if the opponent racks it seems some people can't help touching the apex ball.

And for the record, again, I think Rodney handled that like a pro.

I don't mind reracking for however long it takes.
Rather rerack forever, then let my opponent rack for himself.

And if it becomes a problem, or, if it becomes a MOVE, two can play at that game.
Worst case scenario, you call Zuglan over, and believe me, he is gonna throw up a rack, and you will be forced to break it if he wants, gaps and all.
Then how are they gonna like it?
 

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
Gold Member
Silver Member
when the one-ball is a "hair" off, the corner ball is more likely to go straight in.

It's funny that I played this game for 30 years and never saw anyone touch the one ball.

Pushing the one-ball back slightly creates "gaps," in the rack so small you can't hardly see them. Fiddling with the one-ball is just a diversion, it doesn't have as much to do with the one-ball as the gaps around the 9-ball.

Joe Tucker who is the authority on racking says when the one-ball is a "hair" off, the corner ball is more likely to go straight in. He also says this about the BACK BALL. (however in this case you break from the OPPOSITE side)

The "gaps" tell you where to break from IF you know how to read them. Joe Tucker's video shows these "secrets" and I"m pretty sure all the champions know this. (can't be sure though)


Don't know what tournament it was but they had used those rules no touching the 1-Ball
after the rack is lifted. So the rackers just got the balls tight slid the rack forward a little and
touched the 1-Ball then lifted the rack, so it didn't workout so well. :)
 

JoeyA

Efren's Mini-Tourn BACKER
Silver Member
I played one of the current "superstars" in a tournament. After I racked he touched the one-ball, I looked at him and said "I'd appreciate it if you don't touch the one-ball with your hand."

The very next rack he did it again and my tone changed and so did my eye contact. I lowered my voice and said again, more sternly this time "I know what you're doing, DO NOT touch the one-ball again!!!"

He knew that I knew and made no attempt to touch the one-ball again.

I can't blame them for trying, but I do blame them for continuing after a warning. We had referees at a lot of our major events, besides it would have not been pleasant for a player to try to do that to Buddy Hall, Wade Crane or Allen Hopkins.

Unfortunately, MANY pool players will make attempts to obtain advantages over an opponent. This is but one of them.

It is nice of you to share how this type of behavior should be dealt with.

Some timid souls may not know that they have the right to discourage attempts by their opponent to manipulate the rack after they have already racked the balls.

JoeyA
 

Mikjary

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I hope that's not what the game has devolved into for the future players. Would any of us tolerate a card mechanic or dice mechanic? Why would it be ok in pool?

Is this just an American pastime or is it infecting everybody? :wink:

Best,
Mike
 

Neil

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
So, I guess that means most of the players at Turning Stone are cheaters. Interesting.

Funny to hear a guy laud the science behind racking while mocking science in another thread. Maybe the only good science for pool is the science that he is finally learning after 30 years of playing.??
 

ENGLISH!

Banned
Silver Member
I hope that's not what the game has devolved into for the future players. Would any of us tolerate a card mechanic or dice mechanic? Why would it be ok in pool?

Is this just an American pastime or is it infecting everybody? :wink:

Best,
Mike

I agree with you Mike.

I don't think it is a rampant infectious disease as there are many a good & honorable young guys & gals at the hall I go to.

Now that may change if they get on up the feeding chain but I don't really think so as it seems to be well rooted.

Best 2 Ya,
Rick
 

azhousepro

Administrator
Staff member
Admin
Moderator
Neil, your next post in this thread will result in a vacation.

So, I guess that means most of the players at Turning Stone are cheaters. Interesting.

Funny to hear a guy laud the science behind racking while mocking science in another thread. Maybe the only good science for pool is the science that he is finally learning after 30 years of playing.??
 

azhousepro

Administrator
Staff member
Admin
Moderator
This went beyond "pointing out another users hypocrisy" a long time ago.

But thanks for your input on how to run the site.
 

SUPERSTAR

I am Keyser Söze
Silver Member
ACTUALLY...
There is a guy i know. Goofy. Did things in weird ways when he was first starting out playing pool.
ONE of those things included, racking the balls in an upside down rack (1ball and pointing downtable), and then spinning the rack around so it was correct, and putting the 1 on the spot.
Just one of his quirks.

NEVER EVER understood why he did this, but after watching him do it enough times, it dawned on me that it might be useful somehow.
That somehow was a couple of years later when in a tournament, the balls absolutely would not rack tight up top because the balls kept on sticking to the rack.

Then it dawned on me, why not try it in an upside down rack, like he did, just rack the balls in a regular pattern, instead of upside down, and push the whole thing up till the 1 is on the spot.
So instead of squeezing the balls to the top of the rack, you are squishing the balls towards you and pushing on the 1 down with your fingers.

Worked 95% of the time with getting all the top balls frozen solid in a previously difficult rack.
Can't tell you how many times i've used that method when racking is painstakingly difficult.

So that would be an instance of where you are touching the 1ball to get the balls frozen (not manipulate balls) BEFORE the rack is lifted.

Never had any complaints as someone would usually break in a bunch of balls, and run out on me.
 

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
Gold Member
Silver Member
The offer still stands at any tournament I attend, and I'll rack them tight!

I hope that's not what the game has devolved into for the future players. Would any of us tolerate a card mechanic or dice mechanic? Why would it be ok in pool?

Is this just an American pastime or is it infecting everybody? :wink:

Best,
Mike

It's been okay, and even encouraged to be a "racking mechanic" - why on earth would you ever stream a match without a referee? We used to do it consistently in the 90s.

Click Here For an Example

There's many people that would jump at the opportunity to rack the games for champion players. I even offered to do it myself in Vegas, and it was refused.

go figure.......fyi - the offer still stands at any tournament I attend, and I'll rack them as tight as possible. :thumbup:
 

Mikjary

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It's been okay, and even encouraged to be a "racking mechanic" - why on earth would you ever stream a match without a referee? We used to do it consistently in the 90s.

Click Here For an Example

There's many people that would jump at the opportunity to rack the games for champion players. I even offered to do it myself in Vegas, and it was refused.

go figure.......fyi - the offer still stands at any tournament I attend, and I'll rack them as tight as possible. :thumbup:

It's like having pool table hackers. It's cool because they can and get away with it. While the rest of us sit and watch, not realizing it's happening until it affects us like a virus.

The break in rotation games is becoming a negative issue and trying to overcome the hackers is a drawback to the game's reputation. Pattern racking and rack manipulation take up tournament time, lessen the quality of play, and give the offending player an unfair advantage. I call this beating your opponent off of the table, not on it.

I rack only to give the tightest rack I can with the balls placed in a random order unless there are multiple money balls. I understand I may not receive a good rack in return. I think that's another form of manipulation, but at least I have the option to check the rack after a slug rack and remedy the situation!

Best,
Mike
 

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
Gold Member
Silver Member
The key to "pro motion" is motion.

It's like having pool table hackers. It's cool because they can and get away with it. While the rest of us sit and watch, not realizing it's happening until it affects us like a virus.

The break in rotation games is becoming a negative issue and trying to overcome the hackers is a drawback to the game's reputation. Pattern racking and rack manipulation take up tournament time, lessen the quality of play, and give the offending player an unfair advantage. I call this beating your opponent off of the table, not on it.

I rack only to give the tightest rack I can with the balls placed in a random order unless there are multiple money balls. I understand I may not receive a good rack in return. I think that's another form of manipulation, but at least I have the option to check the rack after a slug rack and remedy the situation!

Best,
Mike

Yes, Mike, we are witnessing the rotation games at an all time low. Despite what some say, it's not the pro's fault at all, they just basically "follow orders" from the promoters. This has been a big mistake because they are now making about $2 an hour for all their work (on the average).

It's such a great game, it's sad to see it where it is now. I have the remedy, however, there's never any guarantees. I have been conditioning myself to work 8-12 a day (plus playing tournaments several times a week) so if it doesn't succeed it won't be from a lack of promotion. The key to "pro motion" is motion.

I liked reading that "Wrist Thread" today, it brought back a lot of memories. Did you notice that the same ones are still critics after 27 months, you'd think they'd at least try my techniques, but we both know they never will......their cups are overflowing. ;)
 

Mikjary

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Yes, Mike, we are witnessing the rotation games at an all time low. Despite what some say, it's not the pro's fault at all, they just basically "follow orders" from the promoters. This has been a big mistake because they are now making about $2 an hour for all their work (on the average).

It's such a great game, it's sad to see it where it is now. I have the remedy, however, there's never any guarantees. I have been conditioning myself to work 8-12 a day (plus playing tournaments several times a week) so if it doesn't succeed it won't be from a lack of promotion. The key to "pro motion" is motion.

I liked reading that "Wrist Thread" today, it brought back a lot of memories. Did you notice that the same ones are still critics after 27 months, you'd think they'd at least try my techniques, but we both know they never will......their cups are overflowing. ;)

I like some of the ideas Paul Schofield is implementing in his tourneys and bringing attention to what's broke with the break (see what I did there?). Players should never rack their own, but there's got to be a solution to giving your opponent a slug rack.

The only thing I can think of besides a neutral racker, is policing by the refs after complaints and penalizing obvious bad racking. And who's to say what constitutes a bad rack? Until the racking dilemma is fixed, we got a problem.

Keep on pro-moting! We need as much as we can get to get back on the radar. Sponsors need to believe we are worth their time. I think we also need to watch who is doing the promoting if we get a Pepsi, Ford, or other industry giant.

A bad promoter can either sign away the farm or be too tough to deal with in negotiations. Ultimately, that's up to the players and who they think will represent them the best.

The wrist thread has its detractors, that's for sure. And they may be anti-CJ, too. Anything you say or do is immediately something they don't agree with. :D At least they're consistent in their beliefs.

You create conversation in these forums, so an audience for your promotional ideas will be easy. You'll probably have to take some of it with a grain of salt and compare the Wrist thread fans with your critics to get a valid cross section of any ideas you may have. :D Just throw out the high score and the low score and average the middle. That gets rid of the fringe and puts you where you need to be.

Best,
Mike
 
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