Cutting Points

CavinTan

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
How do you make or cut V grooves / pointers into a forearm without an A joint?

meaning to say, im using a full 30" maple core through the whole cue. wouldn't the cutter cut into the core behind the forearm?
 

Chopdoc

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I am not a cue maker but you made me think of this. Joss assembles the entire butt by sleeving everything over a stepped core with the collar an butt cap threaded on. Full core, no A joint on a short splice.

Core-frontrear-610x189.jpg


Not sure if this might give you some ideas but I thought of it when I saw your post.

.
 

qbilder

slower than snails
Silver Member
You have a few options that will allow you to keep your full core construction, but before getting into that is there a legitimate reason for not using an "A" joint?
 

CavinTan

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You have a few options that will allow you to keep your full core construction, but before getting into that is there a legitimate reason for not using an "A" joint?

yes i do, because i'm using a dual core through the whole cue..
 

cueman

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
yes i do, because i'm using a dual core through the whole cue..

If you are using a single piece of wood that is 30 inches long for your core. The way I see to do it is to the make your forearm first and cut the points into it then drill through that. This will make your points pretty tough to hold even. It will require additional steps on your core to make both ends of your forearm blank lock in tight on a couple of oversized steps.
 

JoeyInCali

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues
Silver Member
I am not a cue maker but you made me think of this. Joss assembles the entire butt by sleeving everything over a stepped core with the collar an butt cap threaded on. Full core, no A joint on a short splice.

Core-frontrear-610x189.jpg


Not sure if this might give you some ideas but I thought of it when I saw your post.

.
The threads on the forearm core goes in the handle core.
They are jointed.
 

JoeyInCali

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues
Silver Member
Go to Black Boar's website.
He uses a 30" core.
Shapes the bottom of the points to fit that bottom void.
 

Ssonerai

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I've not yet made a cored shaft; but it has occurred to me in thinking about it that one approach i might take would be as follows: Make the initial dowel somewhat oversize of the intended wrap area diameter. Cut a tenon the size desired for the core on the forearm end, extending back into the wrap enough to cover the joint. Make the fore arm solid, a little long for the centers & to clear cutters on the over-travel. Keep everything concentric. If the wood in the forearm is difficult or expensive, it can have a core smaller than the final size of the tenon installed, to create the length needed between centers on the dividing head.set up.

Build the forearm between centers & when done turn it between centers with a minimal amount of extra diameter for later clean up. Really minimal, but some needed. Then chuck in a collet or any method you choose to keep it concentric both ends in the lathe/steady rest, etc. and bore it to fit the tenon. I would not make it too tight a fit. In WEST I trust. :D

Then let it kick around the shop for a period of time to see if it stays straight.
The problem with a full length dowel is that it ends up behaving about like a full splice. The wood can move when it is turned. You just never know.

When ready to work the full length blank with the slightly oversive forearm on it, put a drill bushing in a collet in the lathe, and a 4 jaw on the nose over that. Set the blank up in a 4 jaw at each end and dial it in so the points run true at both ends of the forearm. You can cheat a little at the wrap end to keep the butt cap end from being too offset, if necessary. The eye can't catch a few .001's off center there the way it can at the sharp end of points due to the taper ratio. Be certain the chucks are not bending the shaft, and be certain the points are running true. :)

When it is all dialed in, Stick a long straight drill with a (shop made) half-side center angle tip through the drill bushing in the headstock & poke a center in the blank. Cut a true land/tenon on the other (butt) end leaving it large as possible dia at this time. Take the revolving 4 jaw off the TS & put a center in. Put the new stub tenon end in the headstock with the recently-poked forearm center on the TS center. Dial the round land/tenon on the butt sleeve end back in, in the 4J, and poke a center it it, too through the headstock bushing. The lathe should be running, as well as the portable drill motor to drive the D-bit through the bushing.

Now, if the shaft stays straight while being turned, it can be worked between non-influencing centers with a driver dog, reversing or not as useful.

Cut the wrap area and see if the fore-arm moved. Hopefully not, but if so you need to decide whether to do the whole 4j + collet + bigger/new center poke. Finish the wrap diameter, skim the forearm to size, and cut the tenon for the butt sleeve and butt cap.

It should make a very solid cue. Since i have only made full splices and merry's the set ups are familiar. But it's a lot more work than what i perceive an A joint to entail. If the cue does not have points to keep aligned, it is actually a simple proposition.

smt
 
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Kim Bye

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
How do you make or cut V grooves / pointers into a forearm without an A joint?

meaning to say, im using a full 30" maple core through the whole cue. wouldn't the cutter cut into the core behind the forearm?

You can use a full length core, and simply core your pointed forearm, handle and butt piece, glue up everything with West, Gorilla or whatever glue you prefer and thread on your joint collar and buttcap, then turn the cue to the final dimensions from there.
 

Canadian cue

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I've not yet made a cored shaft; but it has occurred to me in thinking about it that one approach i might take would be as follows: Make the initial dowel somewhat oversize of the intended wrap area diameter. Cut a tenon the size desired for the core on the forearm end, extending back into the wrap enough to cover the joint. Make the fore arm solid, a little long for the centers & to clear cutters on the over-travel. Keep everything concentric. If the wood in the forearm is difficult or expensive, it can have a core smaller than the final size of the tenon installed, to create the length needed between centers on the dividing head.set up.

Build the forearm between centers & when done turn it between centers with a minimal amount of extra diameter for later clean up. Really minimal, but some needed. Then chuck in a collet or any method you choose to keep it concentric both ends in the lathe/steady rest, etc. and bore it to fit the tenon. I would not make it too tight a fit. In WEST I trust. :D

Then let it kick around the shop for a period of time to see if it stays straight.
The problem with a full length dowel is that it ends up behaving about like a full splice. The wood can move when it is turned. You just never know.

When ready to work the full length blank with the slightly oversive forearm on it, put a drill bushing in a collet in the lathe, and a 4 jaw on the nose over that. Set the blank up in a 4 jaw at each end and dial it in so the points run true at both ends of the forearm. You can cheat a little at the wrap end to keep the butt cap end from being too offset, if necessary. The eye can't catch a few .001's off center there the way it can at the sharp end of points due to the taper ratio. Be certain the chucks are not bending the shaft, and be certain the points are running true. :)

When it is all dialed in, Stick a long straight drill with a (shop made) half-side center angle tip through the drill bushing in the headstock & poke a center in the blank. Cut a true land/tenon on the other (butt) end leaving it large as possible dia at this time. Take the revolving 4 jaw off the TS & put a center in. Put the new stub tenon end in the headstock with the recently-poked forearm center on the TS center. Dial the round land/tenon on the butt sleeve end back in, in the 4J, and poke a center it it, too through the headstock bushing. The lathe should be running, as well as the portable drill motor to drive the D-bit through the bushing.

Now, if the shaft stays straight while being turned, it can be worked between non-influencing centers with a driver dog, reversing or not as useful.

Cut the wrap area and see if the fore-arm moved. Hopefully not, but if so you need to decide whether to do the whole 4j + collet + bigger/new center poke. Finish the wrap diameter, skim the forearm to size, and cut the tenon for the butt sleeve and butt cap.

It should make a very solid cue. Since i have only made full splices and merry's the set ups are familiar. But it's a lot more work than what i perceive an A joint to entail. If the cue does not have points to keep aligned, it is actually a simple proposition.

smt

Wow... that is just too simple of an answer:rolleyes: Making cues is already a losing proposition, if you take that long to dial in a blank you may as well give the costumer your money .:smile:....just poking fun ... Happy cue making
 

Ssonerai

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
No, I get it, there are some endeavors obsessives just should not get involved with.:thumbup:

When everyone else has short cuts or counts on "well, that should be ok and it'll never bother me if i don't check it" & the work comes out perfect; I happen to be the guy that does everything right, checks it twice, and then when it's too late discover a new way to end up wrong. :(

But i do think there is a large element of luck to assume a 30" core, build on it as you go without at least one re-true check/touch up, & end with perfect points and perfectly straight. A full splice blank definitely needs dialing in if the points matter.

smt
 

Chopdoc

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The threads on the forearm core goes in the handle core.
They are jointed.

Not according to Janes.

It is one piece, threaded on each end according to Janes. The picture is edited to show both ends of one piece.

.
 

Canadian cue

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
No, I get it, there are some endeavors obsessives just should not get involved with.:thumbup:

When everyone else has short cuts or counts on "well, that should be ok and it'll never bother me if i don't check it" & the work comes out perfect; I happen to be the guy that does everything right, checks it twice, and then when it's too late discover a new way to end up wrong. :(

But i do think there is a large element of luck to assume a 30" core, build on it as you go without at least one re-true check/touch up, & end with perfect points and perfectly straight. A full splice blank definitely needs dialing in if the points matter.

smt

There is much easier ways of dialing in a full splice. My point was you have to be mindful of the amount of time one spends doing things because the market will only bare so much. When trueing up full splice blanks it's not the time at the machine that is lengthy but the time between cuts waiting for the wood to move that takes a while. As far as the full length core IMO you have to define what is the objective. In my mind the goal is to have a stable cored inner with the look of mitered points on the outside. So if you are going to cut out the bottom of the points when you gundrill then they no longer function like a mitered point. They are now just sharp inlaid points. So if you boil it down to the real problem it is achieving that sharp point look. The guy who perfects the sharp inlaid point is the winner. If you look closely there have been a few big makers who have tackled this problem and done some creative things to achieve the look.
 

Ssonerai

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
There is much easier ways of dialing in a full splice

I'm all ears. :smile:

For the record, I don't find it that bad using a 4J at each end for my full splices, It *saves time in the sense that it gives absolute control. ("Just go do it" ) Then up to the maker how much time to spend. If the points aren't centered at both ends around the axis of the butt, it's going to come back to being a nuisance later as the cue progresses.

IOW, the butt end of the joint with the flat points "could" be off center radially from cue cl, and not be seen because the wood goes the whole way to the center of the cue. But if only the forearm points are dialed in, they will creep (possibly stairstep) as the cue is reduced in diameter in later steps.

smt

*"saves time" I made the (simple) tooling a few years ago for a lady's desk with octagonal full splice legs, walnut into curly maple.
 

BarenbruggeCues

Unregistered User
Silver Member
wouldn't the cutter cut into the core behind the forearm?

Unless you have very shallow and narrow at the bottom points, the short answer is yes.
Of course we have many a "master pro" who can tell you that it isn't a big deal to fill those gaping deep channels with bondo or an extra thick epoxy and all will be great.
I mean...who's gonna see it anyway, Right?:cool:
Of course, there is a much better way to achieve a more desired end result if the handle is an under wrap. And even if it's not an under wrap, some have been able to produce a very excepted end result.

A quick note on dialing in points on a FS blank. First and foremost it can only be done IF all 4 channels in the forearm piece [the female part of the FS] are cut exactly the same length and depth. If one is off you may never get all 4 lined up without any additional manipulation on the point itself.
As far as dialing them in...2-3 minutes tops if you know what your doing. Very simple procedure. Anyone taking longer may need to rethink their procedure.
 

qbilder

slower than snails
Silver Member
Diminishing returns is exactly why I asked the questions I asked. If you build the cue and cut the points as an afterthought, you'll cut right into the core. That negates the purpose of the core. You then have to fill that void behind the point. With that you can either fill with epoxy(or something else) or you can shape the back of the point stock to fit. The latter would look best but only is stronger if the handle sleeves over it. Both ways leave the cue weakened at that point, IMO. If you're gona do it, it's structurally stronger and likely more stable to just do a traditional "A" joint.

The other option is to do the obvious & core a pointed forearm. I don't like that, either because many times my gun drills will wander slightly with no apparent reason other than variations in wood density as you move through the piece. It's very likely you'll get a less than perfect hole, which results in uneven points that you won't be able to straighten up unless they're only slightly off. My guess is they won't be only slightly off. Again, IMO you would be best to do a traditional "A" joint.

The last option that probably makes the most sense is to inlay the points. A few guys I know have figured out a way to inlay sharp corners without any additional hand work. They cut the pocket then cut the part to fit, and it's done. I don't inlay and I don't use CNC, so I don't know anything the guys haven't told me. But from what I have seen, the proof is in the pudding. Figure that out & then inlaying sharp points won't be an issue. Making a 4-point cue with full core would be easy. Otherwise, an "A" joint might be your best option.
 
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avscue

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
"How do you make or cut V grooves / pointers into a forearm without an A joint?"

it would seem you are describing what Schuler used to do - his "Floating" points. these are milled points much like an inlay. use machinery that designed for inlays.

"meaning to say, im using a full 30" maple core through the whole cue. wouldn't the cutter cut into the core behind the forearm? "

"Floating" points do not vary in depth. they differ from the common points used in short splice/full splice cues.
 
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