When did pocket size change from 5”-5 1/2” to 4 1/2”-5” for professional tournaments?
Pocket size
- Thread starter Charles Hartfield
- Start date
Not sure what the pocket specs used to be, but I believe the pockets got a little smaller when they switched from 10' tables to 9' tables some 65 years ago.
Actually, according to Greg Sullivan, 4 1/2" pockets are too tight by existing BCA guidelines. He mentioned it in his BCA Hall of Fame speech last autumn as an example of the lack of standardization in the sport and the industry's inability to change with the times.
Actually, according to Greg Sullivan, 4 1/2" pockets are too tight by existing BCA guidelines. He mentioned it in his BCA Hall of Fame speech last autumn as an example of the lack of standardization in the sport and the industry's inability to change with the times.
It’s been a while - when Diamond tables replaced Gold Crown’s and others as the predominant table sponsor for most professional tournaments and for the DCC.
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I think the table toughness for pockets started with the design of the tables that turned into Diamond tables, there is an accustats match I was watching when the commentators were talking about the tables and one of the pro players said the table was designed with input from the players with tighter pockets, I think those were the early Diamonds or tables that morphed into the design for them. This was an 80s video, so about then I would guess.
It was with the Diamond Tables for sure. Prior to that , and according to specs that used to be in the BCA Handbook, not sure if they still are, corner pockets were supposed to 4 7/8 to 5 1/8. Not only did the pockets shrink with the Diamonds, but the slate shelf into the pocket became deeper.
Everbody has their own opinion on this. Personally think it was the one of worst things for the game. Yes, nine ball as it had been structured for ESPN became too easy for pros who could play 5 or more hours a day. However, for the average Jack or Jill; and for the general promotion of the game to the public, and success of billiard halls, the discouragement caused by this revised set up with a much higher level of pocketing difficulty greatly diminished the interest of beginners and many casual players as well on 9 foot tables.
Brunswick should have fought much harder to retain their specs as the Gold Standard - but many corporate factors and of course $$$; entered into their decision to just fade away. I would rather have seen a game devised that could be brought to the masses and still maintain a decent level of difficulty even for the pros. Chasing off half the billiard audience by eliminating half the fun of playing proved to be a very poor decision for all except maybe Diamond Billiards and the very best pros we are left with today.
I know many on this site will argue with me over this, but WE HERE represent the very top of the heap in terms of interest in this game and time devoted to the game. Think of all those who started the way we did, pocketing balls is what makes the game fun, some decent level of success breeds interest; making it unreasonably difficult to have fun as novice breeds failure IMO.
Everbody has their own opinion on this. Personally think it was the one of worst things for the game. Yes, nine ball as it had been structured for ESPN became too easy for pros who could play 5 or more hours a day. However, for the average Jack or Jill; and for the general promotion of the game to the public, and success of billiard halls, the discouragement caused by this revised set up with a much higher level of pocketing difficulty greatly diminished the interest of beginners and many casual players as well on 9 foot tables.
Brunswick should have fought much harder to retain their specs as the Gold Standard - but many corporate factors and of course $$$; entered into their decision to just fade away. I would rather have seen a game devised that could be brought to the masses and still maintain a decent level of difficulty even for the pros. Chasing off half the billiard audience by eliminating half the fun of playing proved to be a very poor decision for all except maybe Diamond Billiards and the very best pros we are left with today.
I know many on this site will argue with me over this, but WE HERE represent the very top of the heap in terms of interest in this game and time devoted to the game. Think of all those who started the way we did, pocketing balls is what makes the game fun, some decent level of success breeds interest; making it unreasonably difficult to have fun as novice breeds failure IMO.
Very well said. A decent comparison here might be this. Would the general public flee the game of golf if all courses were required to meet professional setups? They would. IMO too.
I never heard of pockets under 5 or much under until the 90s
I grew up with the standard Brunswicks,Gold Crown,Anniversary and Centennial tables
I greatly prefer to play on them for myself or especially family and friends
here is no denying the young guns still shoot great,i watched Efren and Billy on the tight pockets,but I will stick to the old ways andhighly recommend them to
anyone who just enjoys the game
I grew up with the standard Brunswicks,Gold Crown,Anniversary and Centennial tables
I greatly prefer to play on them for myself or especially family and friends
here is no denying the young guns still shoot great,i watched Efren and Billy on the tight pockets,but I will stick to the old ways andhighly recommend them to
anyone who just enjoys the game
VERY TRUE! Unless your golf hcp is scratch or less, a course set up for pro golfers will bring the average golfer to his knees. A few years ago I had to be in Palm Springs for a mtg, got there early to play a round. The course was set up for what had been the Bob Hope Desert Classic, name of tournament had been changed by then. Since I was a single, I had to join a twosome (scratch golfers). You can see where this is going; I quit after 9 holes. Lost too may golf balls and hit few GIR. I could not enjoy playing golf from the tips like a pro.
I don't think my experiences are unique, especially to guys like me who supported this game in every way for YEARS- buying tables, custom cues, you name it! I had a Gold Crown in my home and played mostly on Gold Crowns with the older pocket standard. I can remember the day I showed up for a nine ball tournament - in NYC- about 8 years ago- the room had all pro cut Diamonds- I had never played on them before. Well needless to say my day was a disaster. Yes I was about 60 at the time; but still shooting real well- on Gold Crowns- and not that I resist a challenge- but I felt that day that this was NOT a good thing for pool- not when EVERY table in the room is set up like this - and they were.
As I said before, I love 14.1 and the only decent room - 1 hour from me- is all pro cut red label Diamonds- and several cut at 4 1/4 I'm sorry but 14.1 was not meant to be played on those tables - only pro level or guys who play on them several hours a day are going to run balls enough for the game to be enjoyable. So I almost never go there, even with free table time daily. I stay with the nine foot 4 3/4 Olhausens with Simonis that are in a Community Center - and I run balls till the cows come home.
As I said before, I love 14.1 and the only decent room - 1 hour from me- is all pro cut red label Diamonds- and several cut at 4 1/4 I'm sorry but 14.1 was not meant to be played on those tables - only pro level or guys who play on them several hours a day are going to run balls enough for the game to be enjoyable. So I almost never go there, even with free table time daily. I stay with the nine foot 4 3/4 Olhausens with Simonis that are in a Community Center - and I run balls till the cows come home.
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I appreciate your comments above and in your previous post. My local room has one table with tight pockets and other than the best players in the room, many find it difficult.
I am in the process of swapping-out one GC I for another and in all my research talking to local and nationally respected table mechanics, all recommended anything more than a slight tightening of the pockets. Every single one of them made the same comment: "You don't want the table to be so difficult that it isn't fun to play on."
EDIT: Spelling
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When shortstops play on tiny pockets...
Watch this match, and you'll know why tiny pockets is a terrible idea for pool. These are good players and if I remember correctly there was one or two break and runs in this entire long match. Multiply the problems by ten, and you'll have the average league player experience on such pockets. I do recommend watching the match for the excellent commentary:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WK1MwRCXAM
Watch this match, and you'll know why tiny pockets is a terrible idea for pool. These are good players and if I remember correctly there was one or two break and runs in this entire long match. Multiply the problems by ten, and you'll have the average league player experience on such pockets. I do recommend watching the match for the excellent commentary:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WK1MwRCXAM
IMO 4.5" corners should be the smallest size. Anything less is a joke. I've played on 4.25 and 4" tables and its just not fun at all. Might as well just play snooker.
I disagree with most of this. From my travels around the Country the hacks that play regularly, that think the know how to play, all jump on the toughest tables in the house. It’s frustrating to go to some room that only has one or two tougher tables and some hacks are on them. I’ve seen it from California to New York to Florida, to Texas, and everywhere else. Now to some couple that want to drink and have a good time, I don’t think they would even know if a table had 5” or 4.5” pockets, they’re just banging balls around.
I don’t mind 4.125 or 4.25 for one pocked, in fact I enjoy it more. Sandcastle Billiards has two tables that are 3 7/8, that’s ridiculous. I told SandMan that and he thinks those two tables are great for 1P.
14.1 on a tight table is a disaster. Hell, John Schmidt couldn’t run a 100 balls on 4 1/8 table
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OK, so there are hundreds of rooms opening over the past several years- where? And hacks like me ( I guess) don't really know how to play- good for you! I am genuinely happy for you that anything more than 4 1/2 inn pockets frustrate you- but for the other 99.5% of the people in this country who might like to try this game - I have NO DOUBT that having rooms full of 4 1/2 pockets or less has helped kill this sport to the MASSES!
I try to look at it from the perspective of keeping the game alive for what would appeal to most- that must be hard for you to understand for some reason- maybe you are just too good at pool to get it. Congrats on being one of the greats! I am very happy to run a few racks of 8 or 9 ball and also get up a run 40 or so in 14.1 on a standard Gold Crown- and would love to see many more newcomers get to that level as well. That's ALL!
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I agree with some of this. That is the hacks that think they can play LOVE tight pockets, it's not a slam on anyone on this forum in particular. Some great players like tight pockets too, but is see a lot of this crap with low level B players, who only think about pocket size and not too much about position and running out. Great players like the challenge of the tight pockets, bad players like to brag about running 1 rack on tight pockets. The same thing goes on in snooker too, btw.
The problem is that people that come in to play, just to hang out, while being a source of income is not a steady one. They come in for a date or whatever and then leave and come back maybe twice in a year. Those people may not care much about pool at all. So naturally they don't really care about the pockets either.
Then you have the group of friends, who could be potential regulars, coming in and not making any balls. They won't say anything or complain, but they'll not feel like they're mastering the game, which is a key to bring them back. If you get a feeling of being good, you'll come back. If all you do is rattle balls and look stupid, then...In my country, snooker is often on tv. Every time O'Sullivan has been on there are a few that come in to play snooker, and of course they want the table just as on tv. Looks easy with Ronnie slamming them in, right? After they spent 45 minutes without pocketing anything, they leave and never come back. Recruiting snooker players is not easy, it takes a little time to get that good feeling there.
I'll say this: after my pool club tightned up the pockets, attendance from some of the regulars, even good players that run out a lot, has dropped off. There has been some recruiting that has kept it going (with lots of effort), but many of the old regulars don't play as much and many of the recruits go away quickly. I don't think it was a good move.
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In a commercial setting all tight pockets do is cost the owner $$$. Having one or two with tighter pockets is ok but not all of them.
The tightest table I have access to is an 8 foot Global with 4.25" corners. The table leans a little and the pockets are typically bar table shallow but I don't play to hang balls. The small apertures are what counts. There's a place nearby with 4 perfectly level GCs but the pockets are so loose, I can't even stay interested. !5, 20 minutes and apathy sets in. I think object ball accuracy is fundamental and should be refined to picture perfect.
I've read everything posted and my biggest worry is that the 1 size fits all approach to all games just doesn't work. _IF_ the tables were made bigger by just 5% lin both dimensions, maybe in a few years someone would master how to adjust the rails on-the-fly to meet a given game (like golf, stadiums, etc.). It would take some imagination, but with that extra 5% slate most hope is lost.. But right now, the tables seem to be hard coded to play either a 9/10 ball run out.
Here are a couple posts from the late Mr. Bond that present a different picture of pocket sizes in the past:
https://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=4868105&postcount=20
https://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=4713913&postcount=50
https://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=4868105&postcount=20
https://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=4713913&postcount=50