CF Shafts - Wall Thickness Uniformity?

j2pac

j2pac

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garczar said:
That is true of flag-wrapped shafts. Almost all(golf) shafts now are filament wound and these are virtually spine-free. The REVO is filament-wound but i'm not sure of other shafts.
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Believe me, even with filament winding, which is "old" technology at this point, there are "spines." Many golf shaft manufacturers are going to the idea of vertical prepreg, or angular micro laminates, with a wound over-layer. I have seen $300.00 shafts, be farther "out" than $50.00 shafts as well. The other thing that you have to be careful of in terms of CF shafts, is not only the idea of "straight/manufactured warp," but also the idea of "round" or concentric, especially at the tip end. :cool: These are good questions/specs to inquire about, when purchasing a CF shaft, from a "secondary" supplier...If you are intending to finish out your own shaft/s, or have one custom made.
Regards. :smile:
j2
 
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j2pac

j2pac

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garczar said:
In golf shafts the big end is stronger due to diameter so its thinner than at the tip end. I would think a pool shaft would be much the came. Pool shaft isn't stressed like a golf shaft but i bet the tip end still has thicker walls.
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Possibly so. Carbon Fiber is still relatively new in terms of it's use for billiards shafts. I imagine much more advancement/s yet to come. :cool:
 
conetip

conetip

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To get a uniform performing carbon shaft , the blank needs a wall section that is better than 0.1mm of uniform thickness. If the shaft has an area that is thicker or thinner by 0.1mm, it creates a bias in the way the cue plays. Some people like having a bias in a cue, most don't. The thinner section will be the side or direction that the shaft can flex more. The thicker section will be the side the shaft can flex less. It is easy to see. If the shaft is tapped lightly at the tip end, to allow the shaft to vibrate, instead of vibrating in a circular motion, it will vibrate in an oval motion. Even a concentric wall shaft can vibrate in an oval motion , depending on the layup and the bias direction of the fibres. Composite design and layup is a science. A circular vibrating shaft maybe not what some people are looking for in a cue shaft as well.
 
TATE

TATE

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j2pac said:
Possibly so. Carbon Fiber is still relatively new in terms of it's use for billiards shafts. I imagine much more advancement/s yet to come. :cool:
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Absolutely! This is just the beginning. I remember when flat panel computer screens came out. I treid one and thought they sucked. I sold all my chip stocks that made them. Boy was I wrong!
 
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garczar

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conetip said:
To get a uniform performing carbon shaft , the blank needs a wall section that is better than 0.1mm of uniform thickness. If the shaft has an area that is thicker or thinner by 0.1mm, it creates a bias in the way the cue plays. Some people like having a bias in a cue, most don't. The thinner section will be the side or direction that the shaft can flex more. The thicker section will be the side the shaft can flex less. It is easy to see. If the shaft is tapped lightly at the tip end, to allow the shaft to vibrate, instead of vibrating in a circular motion, it will vibrate in an oval motion. Even a concentric wall shaft can vibrate in an oval motion , depending on the layup and the bias direction of the fibres. Composite design and layup is a science. A circular vibrating shaft maybe not what some people are looking for in a cue shaft as well.
Click to expand...
The bias you mention is usually seen only in flag wrapped tubes. Filament winding results in a much more precise tube. Revo and Cynergy shafts are filament wound, not sure of others. Most likely they are as filament winding has become pretty standard. Flag or sheet wrapped was common before high-quality TOW and winding machines came around.
 
Patrick Johnson

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garczar said:
The bias you mention is usually seen only in flag wrapped tubes. Filament winding results in a much more precise tube. Revo and Cynergy shafts are filament wound, not sure of others. Most likely they are as filament winding has become pretty standard. Flag or sheet wrapped was common before high-quality TOW and winding machines came around.
Click to expand...
If filament winding means single threads rather than sheets, that sounds like lots of control over varying thickness. I imagine that even a uniform thickness wall wound on the right shaped mandrel could produce the tapers needed.

pj
chgo
 
poolfool1957

poolfool1957

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loving the content of this thread....thanks to all who are contributing real insight regardless of the level of expertise!
 
HawaiianEye

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TATE said:
Sure, here are the pics. The picture is a little deceiving. The white 5.1 shafts are no as thick as they appear and the black prime M not as thin. But you can clearly see the taper difference. I have always preferred a stiffer, conical taper. Some players love the long, slender taper.

I just ordered the 5.1 in black - I think that's going to be perfect if I can get used to the color. I also found touch up paint for the white shafts online and ordered one of their factory two piece extensions.

I realize with a Fargo Rating of 630 I am not qualified to talk about this. I'll work on my game (spray tan and belly) a bit to see if I can get on TV, then I'll ask Panjit if i am qualified to discuss this. But it did feel good to deal a little red rep for once.

This is a fantastic cue. I retired all my wooden shafts after adjusting to this. Like the difference between an LED and CRT.
Click to expand...


I prefer my white Prime with the Pro taper.

I have a white 31" 5.1 that I never use.

I also have an extra weight bolt package.

If you don't like the black Prime, let me know and maybe we can do some horse trading.
 
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j2pac

j2pac

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Patrick Johnson said:
If filament winding means single threads rather than sheets, that sounds like lots of control over varying thickness. I imagine that even a uniform thickness wall wound on the right shaped mandrel could produce the tapers needed.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...

The tolerance/control issues begin when you begin introducing resin, heat, vacuum, and/or pressure. ;)
 
P

poolguy4u

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.



On my shafts the wall thickness is not the same all the way around.

Also, they are not perfectly round and vary in diameter.


But they are shafts for pool players so it doesn't really matter.

As long as they play good and last is the important thing.





.
 
logical

logical

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poolguy4u said:
.







On my shafts the wall thickness is not the same all the way around.



Also, they are not perfectly round and vary in diameter.





But they are shafts for pool players so it doesn't really matter.



As long as they play good and last is the important thing.











.
Click to expand...
How do you know the thickness varies?

Sent from the future.
 
TATE

TATE

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HawaiianEye said:
I prefer the my white Prime with the Pro taper.

I have a white 31" 5.1 that I never use.

I also have an extra weight bolt package.

If you don't like the black Prime, let me know and maybe we can do some horse trading.
Click to expand...

Sounds like a plan. Let me get the black 5.1 in and I'll get back with you after I have a chance to use both side by side.
 
conetip

conetip

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garczar said:
The bias you mention is usually seen only in flag wrapped tubes. Filament winding results in a much more precise tube. Revo and Cynergy shafts are filament wound, not sure of others. Most likely they are as filament winding has become pretty standard. Flag or sheet wrapped was common before high-quality TOW and winding machines came around.
Click to expand...

Even in filament winding, there are variances.
Do the shaft tap test and you will see what I mean.
There are valid reasons for using a combination of wrapped layers and other means of creating layers.
High quality tow has always been an important part of composite engineering.Along with resin to fibre ratio's, and density of the fibre.
 
oldschool1478

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Which is the stiffer carbon fiber tube: unidirectional tubing, fabric tubing, or filament wound tubing?
The two types of Rock West Composites roll-wrapped tubing (i.e., unidirectional and fabric) are nearly the same in terms of stiffness performance with unidirectional outperforming slightly. Our filament wound tubing in general will not be as stiff in bending as a roll wrapped tube, however, most filament wound tubes will outperform the roll wrapped in torsional (twisting) applications since the fibers are mostly oriented in off-axis angles. Each of these processes produce inherently different tube stiffnesses due to different fiber wrap angles (or lay-up).
What is the difference between a unidirectional tube and a fabric tube?
The only difference is the outside fabric layer. The unidirectional tubing is the same as the fabric tubing with the exception of the last "decorative" and sometimes protective woven layer. Unidirectional carbon is the no frills, structural backbone. Both tube styles are comprised of mostly zero-degree ply orientations with some 90-degree plies (hoop wraps) and in some cases +/-45-degree plies to give the tube great all-round performance.

https://www.rockwestcomposites.com/round-tubing/round-carbon-fiber-tubing
 
TATE

TATE

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Becue has decided not to join the forum due to time constraints.

I truly admire Alessandro and Becue. To me they are the Ducati of pool cue manufacturers. They do their own thing, strive for perfection and performance with quality at the forefront.

They have updated their processes and their latest shafts are very high quality. Here are the answers to my questions:


1. yes all shafts and components are 100% made in Italy. Now also the tip, our core tip is 100% made in Italy

2. All shafts are made wrapping the canvases on the mandrels

3. all shafts are sanded to reach the perfect feeling and to remove the imperfections due to previous processes

Alessandro

So happy I took a flyer on some of their first cues. Not my last!

Here's their website. https://www.becueofficial.com/
 
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lakeman77

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From my experience with carbon arrow shafts and carbon bicycle frames, carbon tubing isn't all that precise. Sounds like space age computer perfect. Unfortunately not.
 
rhinobywilhite

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Pangit said:
How many of the above CF shaft "experts" have ever played on TV. YouTube doesn't count. ;)
Click to expand...

How many nutjobs like you live in the Philippines?

I doubt you know anything about carbon fiber shafts or anything else except "Orange Man Bad" based on your posts in NPR.
 
conetip

conetip

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oldschool1478 said:
Which is the stiffer carbon fiber tube: unidirectional tubing, fabric tubing, or filament wound tubing?
The two types of Rock West Composites roll-wrapped tubing (i.e., unidirectional and fabric) are nearly the same in terms of stiffness performance with unidirectional outperforming slightly. Our filament wound tubing in general will not be as stiff in bending as a roll wrapped tube, however, most filament wound tubes will outperform the roll wrapped in torsional (twisting) applications since the fibers are mostly oriented in off-axis angles. Each of these processes produce inherently different tube stiffnesses due to different fiber wrap angles (or lay-up).
What is the difference between a unidirectional tube and a fabric tube?
The only difference is the outside fabric layer. The unidirectional tubing is the same as the fabric tubing with the exception of the last "decorative" and sometimes protective woven layer. Unidirectional carbon is the no frills, structural backbone. Both tube styles are comprised of mostly zero-degree ply orientations with some 90-degree plies (hoop wraps) and in some cases +/-45-degree plies to give the tube great all-round performance.

https://www.rockwestcomposites.com/round-tubing/round-carbon-fiber-tubing
Click to expand...

Do you have the weaving capabilities on your winders ? So that each layer is woven effectively in between the unidirectional layers and hoop layers? There are some really amazing cloth types in not only the layer options in the cloth,but also inthe way they mix the various modulas fibers in the same layer. Fascinating stuff really, also the type of carbon fibre that is available as well.
 
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