What is the Difference between solid wood joint and metal joint

PoolFan101

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Out of Curiosity what is the Difference between a wood to wood joint and a metal joint . They make 2 piece cues with either and I believe that I read that the wood to wood gives a softer hit. Is the 2 piece metal joint supposed to make the cue stiffer for like breaking maybe or is one joint more desirable than another. I see a lot of high end cues with metal joints .
 

Scratch85

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Are you asking, what is the difference, in construction, between wood/wood and metal/metal joint that may affect feel? Or are you just asking the difference between the feel of each joint?


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HawaiianEye

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Metal is much harder

Is metal much harder than "ironwood"?

LOL.

Are you meaning the "hit" feels "harder"?

I have quite a few cues and I "think" that my cues with flat-faced wood-to-wood joints have a "softer" hit than my metal joint cues.

It may not be a "softer" vs "harder" kind of thing, but they feel "different" to me.

I "feel" that my wood-to-wood joint cues seem to "flex" a bit more than my metal jointed cues.

Some "people" on here will say that is nonsense, but that's their opinion.
 

deanoc

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
this is a good question
timscruggs was known for his piloted steel joints,like schon,gus,george etc

tony at black boar would do nothing but piloted steel,i think
Yet tim told me that the gig screw wood to wood produced a beeter play

confusing,but Tim felt his big pin flat face steel joint was the best in his opinion

whether he wasthe best i don't know,but everyone respected Tim

I have seen great playersplay both kinds,changing back and forth

i think nobody knows for sure
 

TATE

AzB Gold Mensch
Silver Member
The difference is not in the way the cue plays or "hits". It's in the strength and durability of the joint itself. A wooden joint is easier to split with lateral pressure and normal wood expansion. Metal adds lateral strength to the joint and helps to prevent stress cracks. (It can still happen though but you won't see them).

I've had no problem with most joints. I prefer flat faced joints because there are less parts to get loose.
 

JazzboxBlues

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The linked post from Murray Tucker describes an experiment that targeted playing characteristics of different joint constructions.



https://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=5693724&postcount=11



Excellent info on your link. I personally seem to prefer a flat faced big pin joint. In all fairness if I pick up a cue and like it no matter what the joint is I can start using it. I’ll adjust to it.

Currently my player is a Josey sneaky. It’s a radial pin with 13mm shaft. I’ve shot with it for more than 2 years. The other cue I have is a Scruggs sneaky. The joint has plastic collars and piloted. It’s shaft is 13.25mm. I seem to be able to juice the ball easier with it but I return to the Josey. I feel I could quickly get used to the Scruggs though. Both cues are do for a tip and will get the same replacement. I’ll make a better assessment then.

My thinking is find a cue you like regardless of the joint.

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Last edited:

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
The linked post from Murray Tucker describes an experiment that targeted playing characteristics of different joint constructions.

https://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=5693724&postcount=11
That was a very interesting test that John McChesney set up and reported on in June of 1999.

Here is the header and the start of the posting for the historians among us ...

From: John McChesney (j...@texasexpress.com)
Subject: Re: Metal joint VS wood to wood joint?
Newsgroups: rec.sport.billiard
Date: 1999/06/14

Here's something interesting we tried in 1991:
rec.sport.billiard was a text-only discussion group that predated AZB. I was sorry to see it die, but innerwebz technology moved on.
 

conetip

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Bob, of the 2 wood joint cues that people liked the hit of the most, what tip and ferrule was used on those two cues?
Thanks,
Neil
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Bob, of the 2 wood joint cues that people liked the hit of the most, what tip and ferrule was used on those two cues?
Thanks,
Neil
I have no idea since I wasn't there. The tests were done in 1991 so you can cross quite a few tips off your list.:wink: For the tips, I think there are only two things that could make a difference: hardness and elasticity. I don't know of any tip company that publishes these two important numbers.
 

JoeyInCali

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues
Silver Member
Bob, of the 2 wood joint cues that people liked the hit of the most, what tip and ferrule was used on those two cues?
Thanks,
Neil

The ferrule on the Scruggs was the old Aegis/melamine . It was the real clean G-7.
Probably the best hard ferrule ever.
 

HueblerHustler7

AndrewActionG
Silver Member
I've had good cues with both, and bad cues with both.

This!, all depends on wood chic, construction technique, balance point/ weight, down to specific the makers taper used on the butt and shaft... So many variables, I have had more stiff hitting cues with 3/8-10 wood to wood joint personally, and hit with quite a few soft whippy hitting cues with a piloted 5/16-14 joint. Then there was my Huebler with a flat faced 5/16-18 steel joint that hit stiff... Many differences many variables, Talk to some players try their cues out if the are willing, and spend sometime reading reviews on certain makers cues. Just remember feeling is subjective to everyone. :thumbup:
 

CocoboloCowboy

Cowboys are my hero's
Silver Member
The difference is not in the way the cue plays or "hits". It's in the strength and durability of the joint itself. A wooden joint is easier to split with lateral pressure and normal wood expansion. Metal adds lateral strength to the joint and helps to prevent stress cracks. (It can still happen though but you won't see them).

I've had no problem with most joints. I prefer flat faced joints because there are less parts to get loose.

Think you deserve a Ribbon, or some other Award for a simple easy answer.;)
 

Gunn_Slinger

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
This is a debate that I heard in the 60'. Cue makers don't agree.
I have a 1973 ivory joint J O S S cue. I've broken the balls playing
9 ball and bank pool for 30+ years. Never broke the joint or an ivory
ferrule. I have many wood/wood cues and all my cues play like
I want them to. I have found that 2 thing effect the 'feel' of a wooden
shaft . One is the tip. The other is the taper of the shaft. I have a small lathe
and I have taken cues that players say play terrible and change the taper
and they love'em ! I re-taper the shaft slowly , have the player hit balls
with it,then tell me how it hits. if it needs more ( feed back from the player )
I continue in steps until the player likes the hit.
I have 'fixed' over 100 cues that players said were bad.
Now with carbon fiber or 'ld' shafts, I don't answer the door !
Lol.....Later
 

ddg45

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Out of Curiosity what is the Difference between a wood to wood joint and a metal joint . They make 2 piece cues with either and I believe that I read that the wood to wood gives a softer hit. Is the 2 piece metal joint supposed to make the cue stiffer for like breaking maybe or is one joint more desirable than another. I see a lot of high end cues with metal joints .
Another opinion...'feel" is of course subjective but IMHO a steel joint, which usually has a stainless steel collar rather than implex, also moves the balance point a hair forward. I agree that a wood-to-wood 3/8x10 standard joint is a little softer than the piloted steel, but I have a McDermott that is the former and a Pechauer Pro that is the latter and while they feel different I like them both. Great cue makers make them both so one is not better than the other. As with most posts here whatever you like is the best.
 

Bavafongoul

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Here’s My Take......

The joint is an elemental part of why a cue can feel different.
The difference between wood & steel as cue materials is huge.
The best feeling cue I ever tried was a wood to wood joint.
The majority of my cues are flat ivory for durability, yes, durability.
The ferrules and cue joints on my cues are free of any & all cracks.

Wood is more susceptible to environmental conditions & so it can change.
Metal is impervious to that & so is ivory but it is a lot more soft than metal.
Ergo, flat ivory was the next best cue joint I ever used, aside from flat wood.

Now having said this, I think the shaft, ferrule and tip are more influential in
determining how the cue feels more than the cue’s joint but that is also a factor,
albeit less so than than shaft. The weight of the shaft is indicative of the wood’s
density and heavier shaft play more stiff. The ferrule material and length are
other considerations and then of course, the tip type and hardness. Last but not
least are the shaft size and taper length. So as you can see, there’s lots of factors
that in combination affects the way a cue shaft transmits vibration from the stroke.

IMO, there is a weight proportionality ratio between the cue shaft and cue butt and
when the cue fails to fall within this range, the cue usually does not play to my liking.
By that I mean the feel stroking the cue ball just is different than what I prefer in cues.
In fact, all too often the cue demonstrated an unsatisfactory hit and not surprisingly,
a large majority of others testing the very same cue also expressed a similar opinion.

The bottom line is there is not a singular factor or a couple of factors but lots of factors
that contribute to why a cue feels the way it does besides the cue joint regardless of the
joint being wood, ivory, phenolic or metal. Anyway, that’s my 3 cents contribution on this.
 

jrctherake

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The joint is an elemental part of why a cue can feel different.
The difference between wood & steel as cue materials is huge.
The best feeling cue I ever tried was a wood to wood joint.
The majority of my cues are flat ivory for durability, yes, durability.
The ferrules and cue joints on my cues are free of any & all cracks.

Wood is more susceptible to environmental conditions & so it can change.
Metal is impervious to that & so is ivory but it is a lot more soft than metal.
Ergo, flat ivory was the next best cue joint I ever used, aside from flat wood.

Now having said this, I think the shaft, ferrule and tip are more influential in
determining how the cue feels more than the cue’s joint but that is also a factor,
albeit less so than than shaft. The weight of the shaft is indicative of the wood’s
density and heavier shaft play more stiff. The ferrule material and length are
other considerations and then of course, the tip type and hardness. Last but not
least are the shaft size and taper length. So as you can see, there’s lots of factors
that in combination affects the way a cue shaft transmits vibration from the stroke.

IMO, there is a weight proportionality ratio between the cue shaft and cue butt and
when the cue fails to fall within this range, the cue usually does not play to my liking.
By that I mean the feel stroking the cue ball just is different than what I prefer in cues.
In fact, all too often the cue demonstrated an unsatisfactory hit and not surprisingly,
a large majority of others testing the very same cue also expressed a similar opinion.

The bottom line is there is not a singular factor or a couple of factors but lots of factors
that contribute to why a cue feels the way it does besides the cue joint regardless of the
joint being wood, ivory, phenolic or metal. Anyway, that’s my 3 cents contribution on this.

I'm all about balance point, total weight and stiffness.....nothing more...nothing less.

I find that for a cue to weigh ~18.50 ounces and still have a balance point of 19.75" to 20.5" and be a 29/29 split with wood to wood......the shaft MUST be at least 21 to 22% of the total weight .....unless the maker adds something weird in suspicious places that I don't like.

I'm not one that cares about sound because I play with headphones on with very loud music......so, I couldn't hear the hit even if I wanted to.

Feel on the other hand, I LOVE a very hard/stiff hitting cue.

My cue requirements are very simple but, I'm extremely picky about those simple particulars.

Jeff
 
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