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JolietJames
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09-26-2019, 12:20 PM

This sort of thing will always happen unless it's a player known to be underrated by the TD.
The table size issue is worth addressing imo. I honestly feel that I, among others in my circle, play 20+ points better on BB than on 9' Diamonds -where most of our Fargos are derived. I'm not sure there is a way around it.
Good players should just play even and those who put in the time and effort get the rewards. I support the variable entry fees some tournaments utilize. However, I don't feel the tournaments should use both the handicapping of games, and the difference in entry fees.


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  (#32)
jrctherake
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09-26-2019, 12:24 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by hang-the-9 View Post
Players are gaming the Fargo ratings with dumping cheaper events to cash easier in the larger tournaments. I am beginning to think this whole idea of a fair handicapped tournament or league does not exist due to cheaters. Someone always finds a way no matter how you try to make handicapping fair. I may be down to playing in one tournament that is not handicapped and charity stuff.

Probably the only fair way to do handicaps is if you get assigned a handicap by the person that is running the tournament that knows how you play in relation to others there. Aside from that, those that cheat win, automated systems rely on good information, which many seem to be against giving.
Welcome to the world candya55 players that are not good enough to man-up in the box.

Handicapping should be reserved for the handicapped.

I despise handicapping at ALL levels.

To me, a person don't need a handicap, they need to find out how to practice the right way and get better or accept the fact their gonna lose.

Handicapping is:

Foodstamps for POOL.....

Jeff


I knew a fellow that thought he was a good boxer because he was in a position to befriend a lot of "professional boxers". It cost him azzwhippens till he realized he wasn't what he thought/wished he was.

Do you know anyone like the "wannabe" boxer in the pool world?
  
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  (#33)
DecentShot
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09-26-2019, 12:32 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by JolietJames View Post
This sort of thing will always happen unless it's a player known to be underrated by the TD.
The table size issue is worth addressing imo. I honestly feel that I, among others in my circle, play 20+ points better on BB than on 9' Diamonds -where most of our Fargos are derived. I'm not sure there is a way around it.
Good players should just play even and those who put in the time and effort get the rewards. I support the variable entry fees some tournaments utilize. However, I don't feel the tournaments should use both the handicapping of games, and the difference in entry fees.
I've tried to point this out, but then everybody comes on and says, "Nuh Uh, miiiiiine is from 9 footers only man!"
  
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seen that too!
Old
  (#34)
ShootingArts
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seen that too! - 09-26-2019, 12:34 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by DelawareDogs View Post
Yep, and on the other side of that coin, someone who dominates the league talent may be a whole nuther artist When the whole rail starts watching and the calcutta hits 5 figures.

I knew a local big dog that liked to stick his toes in the fire sometimes. Nothing like stepping up a couple levels in competition to make a big dog look like a toy poodle!

Hu
  
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  (#35)
jrctherake
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09-26-2019, 12:34 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by JolietJames View Post
This sort of thing will always happen unless it's a player known to be underrated by the TD.
The table size issue is worth addressing imo. I honestly feel that I, among others in my circle, play 20+ points better on BB than on 9' Diamonds -where most of our Fargos are derived. I'm not sure there is a way around it.
Good players should just play even and those who put in the time and effort get the rewards. I support the variable entry fees some tournaments utilize. However, I don't feel the tournaments should use both the handicapping of games, and the difference in entry fees.
Of course they play better on a BB. It's because they spend almost all their time on toy tables so they can feel good about those "seemingly" hard outs, when in general, those outs are in reach for everyone but complete beginners.

I love it when a toy tabler wonders over to the big tables. Lol....it don't take many games or even just a few shots before you hear "lets move to the 7'er".... then, after a few games over there...lol...we hear, "I need soom weight". Thats usually when I tell them "nope, you need some practice or actually, a lot of practice and maybe even a coach".

Jeff


I knew a fellow that thought he was a good boxer because he was in a position to befriend a lot of "professional boxers". It cost him azzwhippens till he realized he wasn't what he thought/wished he was.

Do you know anyone like the "wannabe" boxer in the pool world?
  
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Old
  (#36)
KCRack'em
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09-26-2019, 12:38 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by sjm View Post
Unfortunately, sandbagging is profitable, and not just in pool. It's a huge issue in golf, too, where handicaps can easily be manipulated. Where there's a profit to be had, whether it's golf or pool, some will always choose to work the system/

I don't expect the problem to be eliminated in the imaginable future, but that said, I admire those organizations like Fargo to offer the best possible ratings they can and feel strongly they are adding an enormous amount of value to our sport.

Unless you are a pro whose livelihood is tied to tournament earnings, I think to opt out of all handicapped tournaments just because of this undisputed reality is an overreaction that will cause you to miss out on some good times and experiences.

By the way, pros work the system, too. At the IPT in 2006-07, each stage was round robin and there were countless opportunities to manipulate scores and matches to help a friend advance to the next stage.
The round robin format is easy to game. I have devloped and run a small round robin tournament and we decided to use blind scoring. The scores are announced at the conclusion of the tournament. It worked for us.


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  (#37)
DelawareDogs
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09-26-2019, 12:44 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrctherake View Post
Welcome to the world candya55 players that are not good enough to man-up in the box.

Handicapping should be reserved for the handicapped.

I despise handicapping at ALL levels.

To me, a person don't need a handicap, they need to find out how to practice the right way and get better or accept the fact their gonna lose.

Handicapping is:

Foodstamps for POOL.....

Jeff
BOOM!! Someone with the same thought process as myself.

If everyone turned on the Thursday game tonight, and Packers were giving the Eagles 3 points and a 5 yard rush bonus...... that Sh*t would be lame a-f.......

Just play, my brethren. You all enjoy the same sport/game. Some are better than others. Learn from that. FargoRate is a great way to judge a players performance, I just don't side with using a performance rating as a crutch.....
  
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highkarate
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09-26-2019, 12:49 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by JolietJames View Post
The table size issue is worth addressing imo. I honestly feel that I, among others in my circle, play 20+ points better on BB than on 9' Diamonds -where most of our Fargos are derived. I'm not sure there is a way around it.
Yeah but this is irrelevant because your fargo rate is derived from your win rate. So if everybody plays 20 points better on a bar box, your win rate against them should remain the same and it is factored into everybody's fargo rate in that way. I think it's typical that people play much better on bar tables, and that fact is already reflected in fargo rates accurately. Unless you mean that you and your friends play better on bar tables disproportionately to the way the rest of the world plays better on bar tables, which I don't think you mean.

Example: I'm a 720 playing a 740. I lose 90-100 in a race to 100 on the big table. Now we play again on the bar table. We both play much better on the bar table and run more racks. I still lose 90-100. Our fargo rates shouldn't change because of the equipment. It's still a 720 playing a 740, but it's just on easier equipment so we both perform better. That is my understanding of how different equipment is already factored into to your fargo.


thats just like, your opinion man

Last edited by highkarate; 09-26-2019 at 01:06 PM.
  
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  (#39)
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09-26-2019, 12:51 PM

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Originally Posted by sbpoolleague View Post
Prove it. I call ....
Just shoot the ball....

td
  
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  (#40)
hang-the-9
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09-26-2019, 01:05 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
Or sometimes no gain. We use a Fargo-like system around here (and have for about 20 years) and early on two buddies figured out how to sandbag. They would just lose all their matches in the little weekly tournaments and then cash in the semi-annual money-added tournament. They showed up at the big event and when they went to sign up they were told the equivalent of, "No, you're not a 600, you're a 680 here. Do you still want to play?"
If this was done, great, but I very very rarely see anyone running a tournament adjust things based on known ability vs what the "system" shows them as.

My son played in an event not long ago, bit money added thing for a local tour. People were in there as C players right before they swapped to Fargo and they were saying "I guess this is the last time I play as a C". Two of the "C" players he played ran out racks against him. They were regulars so the TD could have adjusted to known ability, but nothing is done.


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Old
  (#41)
hang-the-9
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09-26-2019, 01:07 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrctherake View Post
Welcome to the world candya55 players that are not good enough to man-up in the box.

Handicapping should be reserved for the handicapped.

I despise handicapping at ALL levels.

To me, a person don't need a handicap, they need to find out how to practice the right way and get better or accept the fact their gonna lose.

Handicapping is:

Foodstamps for POOL.....

Jeff
Without handicapping events and leagues would die off. At least in my area. There are maybe 3-4-5 good players in each event that would win all the time without a handicap, and maybe 10 lesser players that would still play to compete. The other 20,30,40 would find a handicapped event or find a lower level only tournament.

I know at least one person that wanted to do a league only for low level players because they did not like playing people that were good even when they were getting a spot.


"I'll back you against anyone, as long as you did not know you were playng for money"

Charter member of the D-Bag Club, we stick to the letter of the rules not the spirit, and up yours!
  
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  (#42)
DelawareDogs
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09-26-2019, 01:28 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by hang-the-9 View Post
Without handicapping events and leagues would die off. At least in my area. There are maybe 3-4-5 good players in each event that would win all the time without a handicap, and maybe 10 lesser players that would still play to compete. The other 20,30,40 would find a handicapped event or find a lower level only tournament.

I know at least one person that wanted to do a league only for low level players because they did not like playing people that were good even when they were getting a spot.
And there you have it. The evolution of pool laid out before us.

The players that aren't as strong as the better players don't want to play better players...... they only want to play who they think they can beat......

I got where I was in pool through a lot of hard work, a ton of failure, and definitely playing and losing to people that were much better than me. I also understand that for me to get BETTER, I'll once again need to endure some hard work, a ton of failure, and getting run over by people who are better than me.

We've all seen the Earl documentary....he'd lay in a ditch in NC as a kid and cry when he got beat.

Being the best at anything is a struggle.
  
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  (#43)
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09-26-2019, 01:35 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrctherake View Post
Of course they play better on a BB. It's because they spend almost all their time on toy tables so they can feel good about those "seemingly" hard outs, when in general, those outs are in reach for everyone but complete beginners.

I love it when a toy tabler wonders over to the big tables. Lol....it don't take many games or even just a few shots before you hear "lets move to the 7'er".... then, after a few games over there...lol...we hear, "I need soom weight". Thats usually when I tell them "nope, you need some practice or actually, a lot of practice and maybe even a coach".

Jeff
9 ft are a lot easier to run out on. There is less congestion. The shots are longer, but rarely the creative breakouts needed. As long as you shoot straight, not so hard.


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  (#44)
evergruven
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09-26-2019, 01:40 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrctherake View Post
Welcome to the world candya55 players that are not good enough to man-up in the box.

Handicapping should be reserved for the handicapped.

I despise handicapping at ALL levels.

To me, a person don't need a handicap, they need to find out how to practice the right way and get better or accept the fact their gonna lose.

Handicapping is:

Foodstamps for POOL.....

Jeff
rake, I knew I could count on you in this thread

I think handicapping has a place in pool
but it's a place I don't wanna be at

fargo is cool
but there is dumping in it
it's a system
that can be gamed

my favorite system is
bring your best game
if u win, u win
if u don't, u don't
oh well..keep trying
or just die
natural selection works


A billiard table is that richest of metaphors,
by turns a theatre, an altar, touchstone, gauntlet,
ritual ground, a gunfighter's high noon, a refuge,
a verdant landscape for balls to scatter and rest in meaningful synchronicity,
a classroom, a karma dance, mirror of moods, a guide and trusted friend...

-- from grissim's "billiards"
  
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Old
  (#45)
sjm
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09-26-2019, 01:49 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by jason View Post
9 ft are a lot easier to run out on. There is less congestion. The shots are longer, but rarely the creative breakouts needed. As long as you shoot straight, not so hard.
Surely you jest. When the top guys match up on a bar table, 10-packs are not at all uncommon. I recall reading that Dave Matlock once ran a 28-pack on a bar table. Much easier to string racks on the bar table than the big table.
  
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