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08-19-2008, 10:11 AM

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Originally Posted by bigskyjake
Holding a Mcdonalds bag out the window, holding a camera, and trying to drive at the same time is not a skill I possess. Also, the slim but very real chance of said picture becoming damning evidence is not what I'm looking for
I was only thinking photoshop, nothing Judge Judy can use.

Jim
  
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08-19-2008, 10:12 AM

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Originally Posted by jimmyg
Colin, hope you know that while I totally disagree with you, my response is not intended to be disrespectful, hopefully only a little funny.

Jim
That's ok Jimmy, I know you're a heck of a nice guy.

I just don't like to see you falling for the 'Plastic Bags = enemy no.1-10' silliness.

Many things have their pros and cons, eg. Tires, glass, cardboard, paper, car panels, fertilizers, DDT etc. But dealing with these needs a balanced approach, and the plastic bag issue seems to me one of the least balanced and most ludicrous environmental position ever held. Though there is a lot a competition for those spots.

Ask the 10 million aquatic animals that die each day whether they are more worried about plastic bags or their active predators. *gasp*

Colin


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"The first essential step in the direction of learning any subject is to find principles of numerical reckoning and practicable methods for measuring some quality connected with it. I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind." - Lord Kelvin
  
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08-19-2008, 10:30 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Colin Colenso
A couple of points:
Banning plastic bags would increase fuel prices, the same way banning sales of dog meat would increase the prices of meat.

Also, big deal if plastic doesn't decompose easily. 99.999% of the earth is rock and that doesn't decompose easily.

Funny how the environazis, who have been taken over by the commies, pushed for the replacement of paper bags by plastic bags years ago.

oh, and, plastic bags don' pose a big threat to sea animals. Do some googling and discover, shock horror, that that is another enviro BS campaign.

FWIW: Plastic bags are one of the greatest convenience inventions in human history. They don't pollute my house. Only some government property. Maybe we ought to blame the governments who can't keep their property clean.

Colin
Ah, the "it doesn't bother me none, so it's not my problem" rationale.


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08-19-2008, 10:38 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Ellis
Of course we care about our environment, as long as they put the wind powered generator in somebody else's back yard.
Not across the bay from Senator Kennedy's Cottage.


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08-19-2008, 11:11 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Colin Colenso
That's ok Jimmy, I know you're a heck of a nice guy.

Thanks Colin, and likewise. BUT, you are really off base here.

I just don't like to see you falling for the 'Plastic Bags = enemy no.1-10' silliness.

I don't think that I'm falling for any silliness whatsoever. I just think that plastic bags have an extremely negative effect on our environment, are a total waste of petroleum, and mostly, there are several cost effective, environmentally friendly alternatives to them. Like cloth bags.

Many things have their pros and cons, eg. Tires, glass, cardboard, paper, car panels, fertilizers, DDT etc. But dealing with these needs a balanced approach, and the plastic bag issue seems to me one of the least balanced and most ludicrous environmental position ever held. Though there is a lot a competition for those spots.

Absolutely, but many of the items you mention are necessary and haven't a cost effective, more productive alternative...as do plastic bags, which are an insult to the intelligence of each and every one of us (I can actually hear Dow Chemical laughing every time one of us walks out of a store carrying one).

Ask the 10 million aquatic animals that die each day whether they are more worried about plastic bags or their active predators. *gasp*

I'm not trying to argue Darwin's theory here, have no objection to the "natural selection", or survival of the fitess theory. We're only talking PLASTIC BAGS here.

Colin
Take another look Colin. Jim

The link in my original post still works. try it!

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08-19-2008, 11:51 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmyg
Jim,
That link didn't work.
Anyway, a few points to consider.

Plastic bags are made mostly from ethylene a by-product of naturas gas production. Only 30% is produced from ethylene from naptha, a by product of petroleum production. Selling by-products of fuel resources reduces the cost of fuel. Standard Oil famously used this little economic curio to reduce the price of fuel by 90% in the early 20th century.

On the theory of plastic bags killing marine animals see here: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle3508263.ece

Why dispute that something being non-biodegradable is a bad thing? If a plastic bag is sitting under the surface, how is it any different that dirt or a rock?

People see plastic as litter, but this is because public properties can't keep their properties clean. Just as they can't keep their forests from burning down.

Plastic is pretty much innocuous, and it takes less energy and resources to produce than the alternatives.

One poster suggested I don't care. Indeed I do care. I care that most humans rely on mainstream fear-mongering information so much that they'll eventually destroy civilization. And on that course to destruction, they'll be hell bent on stuffing up most the the great conveniences that have improved the standard of living for billions of people.

I'd reckon cars kill far more people than plastic bags kill marine life. Maybe we better ban cars. Oh, I forgot, we better not stop the anything that aids the destruction of the earthly cancer that is known as mankind.

That sounds silly of course, but it is the opinion of the founder of the Sierra Club and many other environazis. And naturally, they hate plastic bags. They're just so damn unnatural.

Colin


Quote:
"The first essential step in the direction of learning any subject is to find principles of numerical reckoning and practicable methods for measuring some quality connected with it. I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind." - Lord Kelvin

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02-01-2011, 07:07 PM

Plastic or paper?

Too often the trend remains intact.

J
  
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02-01-2011, 07:53 PM

Where's Colin?


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02-01-2011, 08:11 PM

Has not posted since 12/06/09


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10-27-2011, 01:11 PM

Yet, the crooked, parasite, clowns sitting in Washington still claim to care for the environment so much that they are even willing to create more taxes for us (cap N' trade), rather than enforce current corporate emmisions and pollution laws. God bless their bank accounts.

J
  
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Do Americans REALLY care about our environment?
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Do Americans REALLY care about our environment? - 10-27-2011, 01:42 PM

I care about it enough to not want a bunch of corrupt bureaucrats and fools like Gore to exploit stupid people into believing that taxes and regulations can improve things.
I hunt a LOT and care about the environment. I just know better than to trust government to protect it.


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By hatchet, axe, and saw..."

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10-27-2011, 09:40 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Colin Colenso View Post
Also, big deal if plastic doesn't decompose easily. 99.999% of the earth is rock and that doesn't decompose easily.
This is absolutely priceless. I want to frame this quote and put it on my wall.
  
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Hey, it only took Hawaii four years to read my thread
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Thumbs up Hey, it only took Hawaii four years to read my thread - 07-27-2012, 10:03 AM

First Statewide Ban of Plastic Bags
July 26 2012

Link to article & video: http://articles.mercola.com/sites/ar...6_DNL_artNew_1
By Dr. Mercola

In a first-of-its-kind move in the United States, the residents of Hawaii have collectively said "No!" to plastic bags.

Honolulu Mayor Peter Carlisle penned the crowning achievement when he signed a bill banning the bags beginning July 1, 2015.

While Honolulu's new law does have some exceptions, like plastic bags for newspaper delivery, frozen foods and flowers, within three years Hawaii will be the first state in the union to have banned the vast majority of the bags everywhere in the state.

Is It Time to Say Goodbye to the Plastic Bag?

In Hawaii, the ban was accomplished by each of the state's counties banning them on an individual basis, rather than by a state law. Carlisle's signature in the last county to ban the bags completed the act of essentially making it a statewide rule without ever having to go before the state legislature.

Some of the bans are already in place or scheduled to begin next year, with fines of up to $1,000 for each day of violation. The plastic bag issue is particularly important for Hawaii as it is in the middle of the ocean and it is very easy for bags to blow into the ocean.

Meanwhile, Los Angeles became the largest city in the United States to ban plastic bags at supermarket checkout lanes. The city gave stores 16 months to phase them out, at which time shoppers will have to bring their own reusable bags or pay 10 cents for each paper bag.

The trend seems to be picking up speed. San Jose, San Francisco, Pasadena, Monterey, Long Beach, and other cities in California have already banned them. Seattle, Washington's bag ban, which was passed in December 2011, took effect in July 2012, and other areas, such as Aspen, Colorado, have adopted similar bans.

Around the world, countries including China and Ireland are taking a stand against the use of these highly polluting bags, adopting measures ranging from bans to fees on plastic bags in order to reduce their use. Bag taxes can also be incredibly effective. Washington DC put into effect a 5-cent tax on plastic bags two years ago, and the number of plastic bags given by businesses to customers dropped from 22.5 million per month in 2009 to a mere 3 million per month, almost as soon as the tax went into effect.

In Illinois, however, a bill is on the table (SB 34421) that requires plastic bag recycling programs, but would make it illegal for any city in the state to ban the use of plastic bags -- and it's currently waiting a decision from the governor.

Shocking Statistics About Plastic Bag Waste

For a succinct and entertaining introduction to the waste that is the plastic bag, I highly recommend the film "Bag It."2 It is a truly eye-opening look to the vastness of the problem, and the immense waste that could be spared if more Americans toted a reusable bag with them to the grocery store. As their web site reports:3

"In the United States alone, an estimated 12 million barrels of oil is used annually to make the plastic bags that Americans consume. The United States International Trade Commission reported that 102 billion plastic bags were used in the U.S. in 2009. These bags, even when properly disposed of, are easily windblown and often wind up in waterways or on the landscape, becoming eyesores and degrading soil and water quality as they break down into toxic bits.

Their manufacture, transportation and disposal require large quantities of non-renewable resources and release equally large amounts of global-warming gases."

On a worldwide scale, each year about 500 billion to 1 trillion plastic bags are used worldwide. At over 1 million bags per minute, that's a lot of plastic bags, of which billions end up as litter each year, contaminating oceans and other waterways.

Plastic Bag Bits are Now Taking Over Our Oceans

Plastic bags, like the petroleum they are made from, don't biodegrade very well at all, rather, they photodegrade. Meaning, they break down into smaller and smaller toxic bits, which contaminate soil and waterways, and enters the food chain -- animals accidentally eat these bits and pieces, mistaking them for food. According to the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA):4

"Studies have shown that fish and other marine life do eat plastic. Plastics could cause irritation or damage to the digestive system. If plastics are kept in the gut instead of passing through, the fish could feel full (of plastic not food) and this could lead to malnutrition or starvation.

… Plastic debris accumulates persistent organic pollutants (POPs) such as PCBs (polychlorinated biphenyls) up to 100,000 to 1,000,000 times the levels found in seawater (Mato et al. 2001). Oceanic fragments have also tested positive for other POPs, such as DDT, PAHs, and aliphatic hydrocarbons. Many of these pollutants, such as PCBs and DDTs, are known endocrine disruptors and developmental toxicants."

The problem is so severe that multiple plastic "stews" have formed in the oceans. Scientists have dubbed one of the masses of plastic bags, jugs, bottles, nets, and other plastic junk the "Great Pacific Garbage Patch," and its volume is growing at an alarming pace. In some areas, it's said that there are 40 times more plastic in the water than plankton!5

Of course, plastic bags aren't only a problem in the oceans; they're a problem on land, too. It's estimated that plastic bag use in the United States create 300,000 tons of landfill waste each year, and those chemical-laden materials will not stay contained forever.

According to the Clean Air Council:6

"The barriers of all landfills will eventually break down and leak leachate into ground and surface water. Plastics are not inert, and many landfill liners and plastic pipes allow chemicals and gases to pass through while still intact."

Is Recycling the Answer?

Recycling is clearly better than tossing a plastic bag in the trash, but the truth is that only about 5 percent of plastic bags are recycled7 and some estimates place that at closer to 1 percent. This isn't only a matter of consumers not playing their part: the truth is that plastic bag recycling isn't profitable like say, aluminum cans. It reportedly costs $4,000 to process and recycle one ton of plastic bags, which have a market value of only $32!8 And, adding insult to industry, many plastic bags that are recycled are shipped to China to do so, another major waste of energy.

Reuseit.com reported:9

"Many plastic bags collected for recycling are wastefully shipped to overseas processing facilities. According to a 2007 American Chemistry Council report, 10 the U.S. exports 57% of its postconsumer recovered film to China (25% of which consists of plastic bags, contained under the blanket term "mixed film") where there once were "thousands" of plastic processing centers.

However, when the economic downturn happened in late 2008, many of these Chinese plastic processors went out of business. Bottom line: there is a glut of this material that is not getting recycled, leaving material recovery facilities with bales of collected recyclable plastic with no one to sell it to."

Ready to Ditch Plastic Bags?

Plastic bags may seem like an insignificant issue, but they add up significantly over time. This is one area where virtually everyone can have a dramatic impact for change, especially if you encourage your friends, family and neighbors to follow your lead. You don't need to wait for a legislative ban to come to your area – you can enact your own "ban" starting today. Top tips for ditching plastic bags, and other forms of plastic waste, include:

Carry reusable shopping bags – keep them in the trunk of your car, or stash a couple of the small fold-up varieties in your purse so you're always prepared

Avoid plastic produce bags – put the produce right into your reusable cloth bag instead

Use reusable cloth bags for packaging your child's school lunch and snacks

Ditch bottled water – opt for reusable glass or stainless steel bottles instead

Buy milk and other beverages in reusable glass bottles
  
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07-27-2012, 10:10 AM

Quote:
Do Americans REALLY care about our environment?

Generally not.


Even those who claim to be really generally are not.



.


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07-27-2012, 10:20 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawgie View Post
This looks like the best thing to do is tax or ban plastic bags outright. 37M barrels of oil is significant.
But what about choice? It's BS to tax or ban plastic bag; gov't shouldn't be dictating people on what they can and can't use.


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