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LWW
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10-23-2009, 12:50 PM

Let me add this on usury laws ... once one goes beyond the level of risk that a 25% to 30% APR would dictate, you can't charge a high enough APR to cover the added risk.

The reality is that once one gets below a 600 credit score, disaster is quite likely. Once one gets below a 500 credit score disaster is a near certainty.

Raining the rate in an attempt to cover the added risk is a fool's quest because all it does is raise the payment thus squeezing what little chance of repayment there was out of existence.

CC companies can only survive at this risk level because they are collecting a couple points of vig upfront from the vendor.

IOW, if you charge $100 each month and pay it in full every month ... the CC company will make roughly 24% on that average $100 balance. Plus any annual fee.

LWW


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10-23-2009, 02:16 PM

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I can honestly say I do not have a possession I am willing to kill for.
I'd pop a .45 caliber cap in someone's a$$ if they tried to jack my mountain bike.
  
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10-23-2009, 05:56 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmyg View Post
Of course usury laws work.

Usury laws simply limit the interest rates that can be charged to consumers which, in turn, forces lenders into requiring higher credit standards for borrowers in order to reduce their own risk exposure.

Lowered default risk would normally dictate a reduction in interest rates because the excess risk that is removed no longer needs to be spread among ALL borrowers in the form of higher interest rates. The result is that only creditworthy borrowers get loans...as it should be.

I prefer speed limits also.

Jim
Sorry Jim, I have to disagree here.
By instituting these usury laws, you have given the state power to determine who can or cannot borrow money. That's the whole cause of the mess we're in now. You have jumped from one extreme to the other: instead of forced lending to everybody, you have forced non-lending for some people.

Risk is the basis of lending. It is not up to you to decide whether or not I want to risk lending money to somebody. I might want to lend to Jeff, who may be uncreditworthy by your standards. To offset the risk of Jeff defaulting, I would propose he give me better odds on my money (aka higher rates). When he defaults, all of a sudden I become a predatory lender (by your definition). But he knew the risk before borrowing and I knew the risk before lending. If you had it your way, Jeff wouldn't even be able to get a loan.

I understand that you are directing these laws at credit card companies. But what happens after that? The laws would migrate into other consumer (and eventually non-consumer) lending systems: car loans, home mortgages, small business loans. What will become of the bond market after these laws? Now you're capping profits in bonds (though losses can still continue to infinity).

I do not prefer speed limits
  
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10-23-2009, 07:29 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drew View Post
Sorry Jim, I have to disagree here.
By instituting these usury laws, you have given the state power to determine who can or cannot borrow money. That's the whole cause of the mess we're in now. You have jumped from one extreme to the other: instead of forced lending to everybody, you have forced non-lending for some people.

Risk is the basis of lending. It is not up to you to decide whether or not I want to risk lending money to somebody. I might want to lend to Jeff, who may be uncreditworthy by your standards. To offset the risk of Jeff defaulting, I would propose he give me better odds on my money (aka higher rates). When he defaults, all of a sudden I become a predatory lender (by your definition). But he knew the risk before borrowing and I knew the risk before lending. If you had it your way, Jeff wouldn't even be able to get a loan.

I understand that you are directing these laws at credit card companies. But what happens after that? The laws would migrate into other consumer (and eventually non-consumer) lending systems: car loans, home mortgages, small business loans. What will become of the bond market after these laws? Now you're capping profits in bonds (though losses can still continue to infinity).

I do not prefer speed limits
In a true free market system I would have to agree with you Drew.

But what we have here is a system whereby the bank is free (forced) to lend to everyone regardless of their creditworthiness and also without any real risk exposure. They are permitted to charge everyone exorbitant interest rates thereby shifting most of the financial risk from themselves to their creditworthy, responsible customers, and if they still suffer losses those losses will get transferred to the taxpayer.

The same principles apply to both consumer and business debt. If the lender is able to take unnecessary and excessive risk and then shift that risk from themselves to responsible borrowers and the taxpayer you have a broken system. Jeff is not creditworthy or responsible, and is not entitled to, or deserving of credit at the expense of others.

As far a capping bond returns; when you can hide true risk by purchasing a AAA rating from Moody's and still shift bond losses from lenders to the taxpayer you have evidence of a truly broken and corrupt system that requires re-engineering and some basic regulation with consequences.

Let me know where you drive.

Jim
  
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10-24-2009, 06:48 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmyg View Post
Of course usury laws work.

Usury laws simply limit the interest rates that can be charged to consumers which, in turn, forces lenders into requiring higher credit standards for borrowers in order to reduce their own risk exposure.

Lowered default risk would normally dictate a reduction in interest rates because the excess risk that is removed no longer needs to be spread among ALL borrowers in the form of higher interest rates. The result is that only creditworthy borrowers get loans...as it should be.

I prefer speed limits also.

Jim
But these man-created laws cannot overcome the natural laws of economics.

Trying to force such things on a populace is counterproductive, just like all price controls are.

Look at what controlling the prices of money has brought the world.

Jeff Livingston
  
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10-24-2009, 06:51 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmyg View Post
(snip). Jeff is not creditworthy or responsible, and is not entitled to, or deserving of credit at the expense of others.

(snip)
Ahh....now I get it....and here's my answer:

WHAT DREW AND I DO IS NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS.

Jeff Livingston
  
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10-24-2009, 07:15 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by chefjeff View Post
Ahh....now I get it....and here's my answer:

WHAT DREW AND I DO IS NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS.

Jeff Livingston
LOL

Normally not, but when I and others are forced to suffer the credit losses derived from Drew's unfettered greed and Jeff's unwaranted and financially un-deserving desire for a 7500 sq. ft. home with a 60' LED tv in every room, several M/B's in your driveway, filled with useless Chinese, Japanese, and Korean sh*t, and dozens of Blackberry-ish*ts, all done with a zero down, alt A, stated income, 125% LTV, government (taxpayer) guaranteed mortgage, then it becomes my business, and the business of every other American taxpayer that will ultimately pay for it.

"We must learn to tailor our concepts to fit reality, instead of trying to stuff reality into our concepts".
--- Victor Daniels

Jim
  
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10-24-2009, 07:18 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmyg View Post
LOL

Normally not, but when I and others are forced to suffer the credit losses derived from Drew's unfettered greed and Jeff's unwaranted and financially un-deserving desire for a 7500 sq. ft. home with a 60' LED tv in every room, several M/B's in your driveway, filled with useless Chinese, Japanese, and Korean sh*t, and dozens of Blackberry-ish*ts, all done with a zero down, alt A, stated income, 125% LTV, government (taxpayer) guaranteed mortgage, then it becomes my business, and the business of every other American taxpayer that will ultimately pay for it.

"We must learn to tailor our concepts to fit reality, instead of trying to stuff reality into our concepts".
--- Victor Daniels

Jim
I was hoping and figuring on that accurate reply.

So, the problem still isn't the interest rate, but is instead the system that makes innocent people pay for others' bad behavior, right?

So, what entity makes people pay who shouldn't have to pay?

This entity cannot just make more stupid laws to solve the unnecessary problems it already created. Don't ya think?

Jeff Livingston
  
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10-24-2009, 07:40 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmyg View Post
LOL

Normally not, but when I and others are forced to suffer the credit losses derived from Drew's unfettered greed and Jeff's unwaranted and financially un-deserving desire for a 7500 sq. ft. home with a 60' LED tv in every room, several M/B's in your driveway, filled with useless Chinese, Japanese, and Korean sh*t, and dozens of Blackberry-ish*ts, all done with a zero down, alt A, stated income, 125% LTV, government (taxpayer) guaranteed mortgage, then it becomes my business, and the business of every other American taxpayer that will ultimately pay for it.

"We must learn to tailor our concepts to fit reality, instead of trying to stuff reality into our concepts".
--- Victor Daniels

Jim
In an attempt to be an arbiter ... I think we can all safely agree that if Jimmy and El Dubb are going to guarantee the Chefster against loss then we have a vested seat at the table when terms are arranged at.

OTOH ... if Jeff is willing to assume all risk involved in the transaction then it really is none of out bidniss.

LWW


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10-24-2009, 08:19 AM

Once withdrawals are made, what to do with the paper currency?

Here is a great article by one of the great writers, Gary North, that helps one understand gold and its intrinsic value (or not).

An excerpt that reminded me of this thread (and the current god threads, too, btw) :
...Gold does not have intrinsic economic value. No resource in history does. History is the realm of change. In such a world, there is no intrinsic economic value.

There is imputed economic value. There is historic economic value. Neither of these concepts of economic value rests on a theory of the supposed autonomy from free market pricing.

In a free society, final users of any asset have authority over its free market pricing. Owners of gold possess uncommon authority, for gold allows people to invest on the assumption that the larceny in men's hearts focuses on money, and central banks in turn control the supply of money. Those who do not trust the wisdom, motivation, and tools of central bankers have a way to express their lack of trust. They can buy some gold coins.

This upsets politicians. It also upsets court economists, who are well-paid sycophants of central bankers. The more unreliable the decisions of the central bankers, the more upset the economists are with owners of gold. They do not want the price of gold to rise. Such an increase would signal a voice of protest by a small group of private citizens.

If you would like to protest the extension of centralized government power over your life and society in general, buy a few gold coins. I like protests that can turn a profit. This is such a protest.
Jeff Livingston
  
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A Great New's Years Resolution - Just Do It!!!
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Thumbs up A Great New's Years Resolution - Just Do It!!! - 12-30-2009, 07:49 AM

MOVE YOUR MONEY

Tired of the fraud by "big banking interests"?

Tired of bailouts?

Tired of 29.9% credit card interest rates?

Tired of our government screwing you while favoring (and handing billions of your money to) big banking interests?

THEN DO SOMETHING LAWFUL AND EFFECTIVE ABOUT IT.

I started talking about this quite some time ago. Specifically, in October I said:

Go withdraw all your money and business from the following institutions:

Bank of America
Wells Fargo/Wachovia
Citibank
JP Morgan/Chase


Those four.

Place your business with a local community bank or credit union in their place, and tell the above four institutions to "piss off."

I've resisted doing this, but the idea that banks are now going to try to penalize those who do not carry balances or pay late fees is the last straw.

This is a call for a boycott.

A call to break these institutions by destroying their deposit base and "net interest margin", one consumer at a time, as a protest against the outrageous actions these firms have taken in terms of risk and their shifting of the costs of that risk, which should have resulted in their failure and closure by The FDIC and OCC, onto the backs of their customers via outrageous fees, interest rates and costs, along with the direct subsidy being paid by all taxpayers generally.

Now The Huffington Post has picked it up - LINK: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ariann...406022.htmland suddenly there's a Facebook group for it too.

Huffpo said:

The idea is simple: If enough people who have money in one of the big four banks move it into smaller, more local, more traditional community banks, then collectively we, the people, will have taken a big step toward re-rigging the financial system so it becomes again the productive, stable engine for growth it's meant to be. It's neither Left nor Right -- it's populism at its best. Consider it a withdrawal tax on the big banks for the negative service they provide by consistently ignoring the public interest. It's time for Americans to move their money out of these reckless behemoths. And you don't have to worry, there is zero risk: deposit insurance is just as good at small banks -- and unlike the big banks they don't provide the toxic dividend of derivatives trading in a heads-they-win, tails-we-lose fashion.

Yep.

So come on board folks. Yeah, I know, I started banging this drum a couple of months ago and others have been doing so as well.

The point is not to take credit.

It is to make a meaningful difference.

Go over to - LINK: http://moveyourmoney.info/ to learn how easy it is and to research which local banks you should patronize - based on safety, soundness, and most importantly BEING A LOCAL COMMUNITY ORGANIZATION.

While IRA doesn't include this and neither does the web page, a credit union is just as good an option if you have one available and is a MEMBERSHIP ORGANIZATION - not a money-sucking Wall Street monstrosity. One such Credit Union that I personally like is Pentagon Federal Credit Union - they'll allow anyone to join for a one-time donation to an affiliated organization that works for our men and women in the armed forces.

Make your New Years Resolution telling the big Wall Street robber barons TO GET STUFFED!
  
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12-30-2009, 07:57 AM

Uh, what about the trillion (with a T) that the fed gave these quislings?

It would take everybody to withdraw everything (and more) to effect the changes you want to put on these govt "businesses"...and that ain't gonna happen.

OTOH, it is a good idea to get most of your money out of any bank NOW. If there is a bank holiday---oh hell WHEN there is a bank holiday, you'll be glad you did.

The minute people put their ATM card in a machine and it says: "Bank closed, no funds available" the sheet will hit the fan, the grocery stores will empty, gas stations closed, etc. and real fear will ensue. (but hey, they caught those cell phone drivers...and we'll have a govt-mandated college football playoff system!)

Happy New Year everyone!

Jeff Livingston
  
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12-30-2009, 12:06 PM

I deal with the banks every day here at my job. BY FAR, the absolute worst bank for anyone to deal with is Bank of America. They absolutely will not help anyone locate missing funds, I call them maybe 20x each and every day and I have only encountered a very small handfull of people that are remotely pleasant to speak with.

There is a man that had fraud on his acct and the bank is charging him 350.00 per day in late fees, and he is on a fixed income of approx 1600/month. I hear and see this first hand each and every day. I have seen them get a direct deposit to an acct that has been closed for 8 yrs and they automatically reopen the acct and the person what the money belongs to has to jump through hoops to get the money from them.

I would NOT recommend BOA to anyone.


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12-30-2009, 09:52 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by chefjeff View Post
Uh, what about the trillion (with a T) that the fed gave these quislings?

It would take everybody to withdraw everything (and more) to effect the changes you want to put on these govt "businesses"...and that ain't gonna happen.

OTOH, it is a good idea to get most of your money out of any bank NOW. If there is a bank holiday---oh hell WHEN there is a bank holiday, you'll be glad you did.

The minute people put their ATM card in a machine and it says: "Bank closed, no funds available" the sheet will hit the fan, the grocery stores will empty, gas stations closed, etc. and real fear will ensue. (but hey, they caught those cell phone drivers...and we'll have a govt-mandated college football playoff system!)

Happy New Year everyone!

Jeff Livingston
Two points Jeff.

One is that doing nothing is not an option for success. Success comes in degrees, usually taken one step at a time.

Two is the principles of the fractional reserve banking system. Banks are able to lend approximately 9 times their deposits, so for every billion withdrawn they have about 10 billion less to indebt and enslave our citizens...that, my friend, is a good start. IMO.

Yes, we will have a "bank holiday", disruptions in supplies and services, and probably violence and riots. Also IMO.

Happy New Year to All.

Jim
  
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Don't let them get away with it - withdraw your money from them!
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Don't let them get away with it - withdraw your money from them! - 12-30-2009, 10:20 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Icqrx...ayer_embedded#
  
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