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longhorns2
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09-11-2019, 11:11 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
Yes. This has been measured a couple of times. Basically it is a measurement of how rigidly the hand can hold the stick. Compared to how hard the tip is, the hand is very soft and springy. The bottom line is that by holding the stick very, very tightly, you might increase the effective mass of the stick by something like 1% which will get less than 1% increase in ball velocity.

So yes, a very tight grip (and the same stick speed) will move the cue ball very slightly faster. A very tight grip has disadvantages mentioned above.

Beyond that, I think working hard for a small increase in break speed is the wrong thing to work on. Study Corey Deuel.
Thanks for answering. So say you cut a groove into the butt of the cue and crammed your hand into it to "pre-shift" your flesh. Or just for the sake of argument, you had a robot with a metal hand gripping the cue and his hand wouldn't shift at all, then would you have a significant increase in force?
  
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Bob Jewett
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09-11-2019, 11:22 AM

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Originally Posted by longhorns2 View Post
... Or just for the sake of argument, you had a robot with a metal hand gripping the cue and his hand wouldn't shift at all, then would you have a significant increase in force?
That was actually a problem for the initial version of Iron Willie which is Predator's cue-testing robot. The grip was too tight. In effect an extra 20 ounces or so of the swing-arm was added to the weight of the cue stick. When a group of us were running tests with Willie in 1998 we added a layer of bubble wrap to the grip to try to fix things. I believe Predator has since put in a flexible or pliable grip material which acts more like a hand and lets the cue behave like a cue.

I suppose you could put something like a pistol grip on the cue along with a clamp that you could tighten down on your hand until you could not stand any more pain and then the cue would play a little heavier. Or you could just use a heavier cue.


Bob Jewett
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longhorns2
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09-11-2019, 11:30 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
That was actually a problem for the initial version of Iron Willie which is Predator's cue-testing robot. The grip was too tight. In effect an extra 20 ounces or so of the swing-arm was added to the weight of the cue stick. When a group of us were running tests with Willie in 1998 we added a layer of bubble wrap to the grip to try to fix things. I believe Predator has since put in a flexible or pliable grip material which acts more like a hand and lets the cue behave like a cue.

I suppose you could put something like a pistol grip on the cue along with a clamp that you could tighten down on your hand until you could not stand any more pain and then the cue would play a little heavier. Or you could just use a heavier cue.
The problem with using a heavier cue is the acceleration would decrease, right?Whereas if the hand weight was added, the acceleration would remain roughly the same because no matter what, that weight will always be there in the stroke.
  
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dr_dave
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09-11-2019, 11:34 AM

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Originally Posted by longhorns2 View Post
I've hear everyone debate about the weight of the cue for breaking, with some saying a light cue can go faster, or a heavier cue has more force, etc.
The optimal power-break-cue weight for an individual depends on many factors. Lighter is better for some, heavier is better for others. FYI, this is covered in detail here:

optimal cue weight resource page

Quote:
Originally Posted by longhorns2 View Post
But anyway, my question is whether a grip where the cue is firmly in your hand generates more force than a grip more in the fingertips. My gut feeling is that if your hand is connected to the cue, then the weight of your hand is added to the weight of the cue, without any real drawback from reduced speed.
Tightness/tension in the grip (or arm) limits smooth acceleration and results in less speed. For more information, see the videos and other info here:

grip technique advice

light grip vs. tight grip

Enjoy,
Dave
  
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Bob Jewett
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09-11-2019, 11:38 AM

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Originally Posted by longhorns2 View Post
The problem with using a heavier cue is the acceleration would decrease, right?Whereas if the hand weight was added, the acceleration would remain roughly the same because no matter what, that weight will always be there in the stroke.
If the contraption didn't bind your stroke, I suppose it could help add weight to the cue stick without adding weight to the stick/forearm combination. I also suppose you could end up with internal bruising since your hand wouldn't be allowed to do what it normally does.

Maybe this is an interesting theoretical topic, but practically I think it is easier and better for you in the long term to build up your twitch fibers. I know one fancy shot player who had special exercises for this.


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09-11-2019, 11:43 AM

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Originally Posted by longhorns2 View Post
The problem with using a heavier cue is the acceleration would decrease, right?Whereas if the hand weight was added, the acceleration would remain roughly the same because no matter what, that weight will always be there in the stroke.
What is important for break power is cue momentum (cue mass x cue speed) at impact. Please read the entire optimal cue weight resource page. I think it answers all of your questions (and more).

Regards,
Dave
  
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09-11-2019, 11:51 AM

Are we talking about the weight of the hand, on the cue, or are we talking about the amount of energy supplied by the muscles in the arm, when striking the Cue Ball, with the Break Cue. To me, the hand is just gripping the cue, for control of the cue, in the stroke & online, so it goes down the desired path & doesn't go flying, after impact with the Cue Ball... Trying to hit the Cue Ball with Accuracy, some Speed & Control is much more important, than trying to destroy the Cue Ball upon Impact.




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Last edited by ceebee; 09-11-2019 at 02:41 PM. Reason: better expressing myself.
  
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09-11-2019, 02:59 PM

This might not work for everyone but it works for me. A light grip on cue, grip hand more forward than normal(choke-up), greater distance from bridge to CB than normal, a bit more erect to get shoulder involved, and the most important to me ... I stand closer to the table than I usually do, starting at a standing position and then I get down into my stance but I leave my feet closer. This forces me to push my body into the stance tensing(coiling) my muscles from my bridge through my back and legs to the floor, then I release this coiled monster on delivery, and with a square hit the CB will come up to 2 feet straight up before it returns to the middle of the table


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Breaker: House Cue with hard tip
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09-11-2019, 03:24 PM

I don’t know anything about the physics of it all but for practical purposes it seems like a looser grip is better for a vicious break. Better for all shots in general in my experience.

My stepdad plays and he is a death grip breaker. White knuckle and he just powers through the break. He gets pretty good results usually but when I’m playing well and have that fine tuned loose grip I just crush them. I even get a slight ring in my ears after a good break.
  
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09-11-2019, 03:37 PM

Putting all physics aside, the best ways to get more power on the break are summarized and demonstrated here:

power break technique advice

Enjoy,
Dave
  
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Patrick Johnson
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09-11-2019, 08:09 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by tim913 View Post
...with a square hit the CB will come up to 2 feet straight up before it returns to the middle of the table
That's a powerful hit, but I hate to see even that amount of power being diverted to elevating the CB. You might try moving the CB's starting position back a little at a time until the length of its hops match the length of the break and the CB hits the head ball more square (and rebounds more back than up).

pj <- break like the wind
chgo

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09-11-2019, 10:27 PM

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Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
That's a powerful hit, but I hate to see even that amount of power being diverted to elevating the CB. You might try moving the CB's starting position back a little at a time until the length of its hops match the length of the break and the CB hits the head ball more square (and rebounds more back than up).

pj <- break like the wind
chgo
I'll try that but it is a square hit, the CB is not going left or right, but maybe that would
impart more power to the rack. I really would like to get some player's ideas on how they perform a cut break. I would like to control the balls and the CB more instead of just blowing them up, but I guess that would be another topic... Thanks!


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09-12-2019, 08:06 AM

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Originally Posted by tim913 View Post
I'll try that but it is a square hit, the CB is not going left or right
I mean vertically square, so the CB doesn't jump up.

pj
chgo
  
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09-12-2019, 08:19 AM

I think that if you are looking for cue speed to hit the rack then a light grip would be used.

If you want to break the rack with a lot of force backing up the hit use a more firm grip. Excess speed is the enemy for that type of break.

I think any grip could be used to smash the rack its is all dependent on timing. Get the grip you are most comfortable with and focus in on timing.
  
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09-12-2019, 08:32 AM

As far as the hopping of the cue ball there are a few possibilities. The cueball can be on the way up or on the way down. It can bounce once or twice or hit the head ball in the air all the way. You can try do deliver a perfectly level cue ball. If the cueball hops and lands an inch before the head ball that's a way to pop it up without flying the table. Or if it hits the head ball on the way down but high it will pop up. Sometimes the cue ball will land on the bounce where the cue ball hits the head ball and the cloth at the same time.
  
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