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Patrick Johnson
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09-16-2019, 07:38 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by erhino41 View Post
Just having less deflection in the equation does not make it easier, just different.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
...estimating a smaller adjustment to within a few millimeters is easier than estimating a larger adjustment to within a few millimeters. I don't think there's a sensible argument otherwise.
Quote:
Originally Posted by erhino41 View Post
That's not true. I've hit a million with both HD and Id. The adjustments are just as easy to make with either, they are simply different.
I believe it seems the same to you, and you may actually miss no more often with either within the usual margin for error.

But it's objectively easier to estimate a shorter distance than a longer one to the same degree of accuracy. For an exaggerated example, imagine estimating the length of a line that's a foot long vs. one that's 1/2" long, both to within 1/4" of accuracy.

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09-16-2019, 09:28 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by erhino41 View Post
That's not true. I've hit a million with both HD and Id. The adjustments are just as easy to make with either, they are simply different.
Adjustments with an HD shaft are larger than adjustments with an LD shaft. Because of this, errors in adjustment will also be larger with an HD shaft. For more info, see the article and other info here:

advantages of using an LD shaft

Regards,
Dave
  
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  (#33)
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09-16-2019, 09:32 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
IBut it's objectively easier to estimate a shorter distance than a longer one to the same degree of accuracy. For an exaggerated example, imagine estimating the length of a line that's a foot long vs. one that's 1/2" long, both to within 1/4" of accuracy.
Another good analogy for squirt in pool is a crosswind in archery. Less is better for aiming over a wide range of distances.

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Dave
  
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  (#34)
erhino41
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09-17-2019, 06:21 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr_dave View Post
Adjustments with an HD shaft are larger than adjustments with an LD shaft. Because of this, errors in adjustment will also be larger with an HD shaft. For more info, see the article and other info here:



advantages of using an LD shaft



Regards,

Dave
The errors in adjustments simply don't have to be there. Leaving room for error is telling yourself you don't have to be accurate.

We have the ability to be just as accurate with any level of squirt, therefore it is just as easy to shoot with any level of squirt.

One can play however they want. I'm not going to search for the magic piece of equipment that allows me to be the most inaccurate and think that means real improvement.

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  (#35)
erhino41
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09-17-2019, 06:39 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr_dave View Post
Another good analogy for squirt in pool is a crosswind in archery. Less is better for aiming over a wide range of distances.

Regards,
Dave
It's an apt analogy to a point. A cross wind in archery would be far less predictable than squirt, not to mention dealing with gravity.

I'm not arguing against "LD" shafts. I am arguing against the fact that squirt is the boogeyman and has to be engineered out of the game. A zero squirt shaft really wouldn't be any easier for a well trained cueist.

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Last edited by erhino41; 09-17-2019 at 06:44 AM.
  
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  (#36)
Patrick Johnson
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09-17-2019, 07:33 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by erhino41 View Post
A zero squirt shaft really wouldn't be any easier for a well trained cueist.
Even if that was true (it's technically not), less squirt makes it easier to become "well trained".

Your argument is that squirt is less of an issue if you've already learned to deal with lots of it. Sure, but that doesn't make less squirt a marketing gimmick. It's a valuable improvement for most players.

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  (#37)
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09-17-2019, 07:36 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
Even if that was true (it's technically not), less squirt makes it easier to become "well trained".

Your argument is that squirt is less of an issue if you've already learned to deal with lots of it. Sure, but that doesn't make less squirt a marketing gimmick. It's a valuable improvement for most players.

pj
chgo
Especially for beginner-level players. It shortens the learning curve when learning to use spin.
  
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  (#38)
erhino41
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09-17-2019, 08:26 AM

Not in my experience. I've seen many players come and go in my 29 years of playing. I'm not seeing that the learning curve is any different with the ld shafts.

The deflection is not what holds most players back, it's cueing errors. I find fixing cueing errors is far, far more beneficial than finding a shaft that allows you to be less accurate.

In theory I get your point and I agree. Decreasing the range of one variable of the equation decreases the possible number of outcomes. Of the variables, squirt, swerve and throw, squirt is the easiest to accurately overcome regardless of the amount of it. When the rubber meets the road defection of any amount is the least of the worries for a beginner. It's actually the most reliable component of the equation.

Now if you make balls and cloth that are impervious to atmospheric conditions and swerve and throw with the same predictability as squirt, you have my attention.

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  (#39)
Patrick Johnson
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09-17-2019, 09:22 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by erhino41 View Post
Now if you make balls and cloth that are impervious to atmospheric conditions and swerve and throw with the same predictability as squirt, you have my attention.
Yes, swerve is the most difficult of the "aiming variables", due to its dependence on so many other variables - amount of spin, shot distance, shot speed, cue elevation, cloth/ball conditions. Maybe more?

Throw also depends on several variables, even though it's a smaller effect.

I agree that squirt, even though it's the largest effect, is the most predictable of these and so the easiest to deal with - but it's the one we can improve with equipment, so why not do that?

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  (#40)
dr_dave
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09-17-2019, 10:00 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by erhino41 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr_dave View Post
Adjustments with an HD shaft are larger than adjustments with an LD shaft. Because of this, errors in adjustment will also be larger with an HD shaft. For more info, see the article and other info here:

advantages of using an LD shaft
The errors in adjustments simply don't have to be there. Leaving room for error is telling yourself you don't have to be accurate.
Error is unavoidable. It is a fact of life. Even the top pros have aiming errors on practically every shot (i.e., their aim is rarely absolutely perfect). If the errors are small enough, the OB still enters the pocket; but when the errors are larger, then misses occur.

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Dave
  
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  (#41)
erhino41
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09-17-2019, 01:36 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
Yes, swerve is the most difficult of the "aiming variables", due to its dependence on so many other variables - amount of spin, shot distance, shot speed, cue elevation, cloth/ball conditions. Maybe more?



Throw also depends on several variables, even though it's a smaller effect.



I agree that squirt, even though it's the largest effect, is the most predictable of these and so the easiest to deal with - but it's the one we can improve with equipment, so why not do that?



pj

chgo
You can improve upon it so you should improve upon it.

My issue lies with the push for ever less deflection and the ensuing marketing pushes telling everyone that the old one wasn't as accurate as this new one, implying that you need this new one.

Do you think a 1 or 2 percent decrease in end mass makes a shaft far more accurate or impercievably more accurate? That's the range of improvement thats being pushed by the mfg's as near miraculous breakthroughs.

It has been my experience that a high squirt cue gives more than enough margin for error, sure low squirt shafts increase that margin, but I'll never be convinced its necessary. To each his own.

I've had many conversations with many players of all different levels about deflection. The amount of people who have it in their head that they need a different shaft to improve their game is mind boggling, even some very good payers who should know the real ways that they can improve.






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  (#42)
erhino41
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09-17-2019, 01:44 PM

The consistency from shaft to shaft is one great improvement that has come from their endeavors. I know finding two solid maple "high" deflection shafts that play nearly identical is a feat. The ld shafts I've played tend to be very consistent and play similarly from one to the next of the same model a far as I've experienced.





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  (#43)
Patrick Johnson
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09-17-2019, 02:03 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by erhino41 View Post
Do you think a 1 or 2 percent decrease in end mass makes a shaft far more accurate or impercievably more accurate? That's the range of improvement thats being pushed by the mfg's as near miraculous breakthroughs.
I don't know the percentages that matter or that are being touted by manufacturers. But I know that some amount matters because I see the difference in my own accuracy when I use a higher squirt cue. So we shouldn't dismiss the whole topic as mere marketing hype - caveat emptor on all sides.

Quote:
It has been my experience that a high squirt cue gives more than enough margin for error, sure low squirt shafts increase that margin
[semantics]
I think the margin of error for any shot is fixed - the question is whether we're accurate enough to stay within it.
[/semantics]

I stray outside it noticeably more often with higher squirt cues, at least partly because I've played exclusively with an ultra-low squirt cue for the past 20+ years.

And of course familiarity also works the other direction: if you've played more with higher squirt cues you'll likely be more accurate with them until you've spent enough time with lower squirt ones.

I believe the lower squirt ones have (at least a little) more potential for accuracy.

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  (#44)
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09-17-2019, 02:44 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
I don't know the percentages that matter or that are being touted by manufacturers. But I know that some amount matters because I see the difference in my own accuracy when I use a higher squirt cue. So we shouldn't dismiss the whole topic as mere marketing hype - caveat emptor on all sides.


[semantics]
I think the margin of error for any shot is fixed - the question is whether we're accurate enough to stay within it.
[/semantics]

I stray outside it noticeably more often with higher squirt cues, at least partly because I've played exclusively with an ultra-low squirt cue for the past 20+ years.

And of course familiarity also works the other direction: if you've played more with higher squirt cues you'll likely be more accurate with them until you've spent enough time with lower squirt ones.

I believe the lower squirt ones have (at least a little) more potential for accuracy.

pj
chgo
Companies have been selling low deflection shafts for years saying each one is better. Iíve seen players that canít hit the end rail with the cue ball buy every new shaft that comes out Guess what they still canít hit the end rail with the cue ball. So how much a shaft deflects or doesnít deflect isnít enough to make much of a difference one way or the other.

I donít know of a single player thatís went from an average player to a pro level by simply playing with a different shaft.
  
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  (#45)
softshot
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09-17-2019, 02:45 PM

Squirt is useful...


The Truth: If you have a stroke the gear don't matter... If you don't have a stroke the gear won't help..
  
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