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  (#61)
erhino41
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09-20-2019, 06:48 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
Yep.

Cues with more or less squirt simply produce identical forces at slightly different angles to the cues' center lines - angling the cues slightly differently produces identical forces, directions and CB action.

But WTF is up with low squirt and jumping?

pj
chgo
No idea. It's some excuse that will never actually come up that can be used to disparage LD shafts.

I'm not against LD shafts in the least. I know what I like and its my standard maple shaft. I tell people to find a shaft they like the feel of, weight, balance, stiffness, and learn the adjustments for that shaft, whether it be diamondwood of the newest fanciest ld shaft.

I won't tell them one way or the other that one of them is easier. If they find it easier then good for them.


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Last edited by erhino41; 09-20-2019 at 06:50 AM.
  
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  (#62)
Patrick Johnson
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09-20-2019, 08:42 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
WTF is up with low squirt and jumping?
Quote:
Originally Posted by erhino41 View Post
It's some excuse that will never actually come up that can be used to disparage LD shafts.
Comes up for me every time I try to jump with my LD shaft...

pj <- LD shaft fan
chgo
  
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  (#63)
dr_dave
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09-20-2019, 09:22 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
YBut WTF is up with low squirt and jumping?
FYI, this question is addressed on the jump cue resource page.

Check it out,
Dave
  
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  (#64)
Hits 'em Hard
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09-20-2019, 09:31 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
Comes up for me every time I try to jump with my LD shaft...

pj <- LD shaft fan
chgo
Iíve complained of that issue since I tried an LD shaft. I can only assume itís a combo between itís LD properties, and front end materials. There are some that work, that pros demonstrate routinely in matches. And some that never work. Or is it all stroke? I can jump full cue no problem. Playing and break. But not with an LD shaft for whatever reason.
  
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  (#65)
Patrick Johnson
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09-20-2019, 10:04 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr_dave View Post
FYI, this question is addressed on the jump cue resource page.

Check it out,
Dave
It appears that the two differences that make LD shafts jump so much worse than regular cues is less stiffness and poorer "hit efficiency" (which I take to mean transferring less force).

My very low squirt cue feels very stiff because of its conical taper - does that reduce stiffness as a jump factor?

Does low end mass play a direct role in hit efficiency?

Thanks again for all the great info you regularly provide us!

pj
chgo
  
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  (#66)
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09-20-2019, 10:15 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
It appears that the two differences that make LD shafts jump so much worse than regular cues is less stiffness and poorer "hit efficiency" (which I take to mean transferring less force).

My very low squirt cue feels very stiff because of its conical taper - does that reduce stiffness as a jump factor?

Does low end mass play a direct role in hit efficiency?

Thanks again for all the great info you regularly provide us!

pj
chgo
Low deflection shafts are actualy high deflection.
They deflect off the cue ball easier than regular shafts.
They don't stay on the ball and trap it to the slate in jumping. They deflect off the ball.


  
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Old
  (#67)
dr_dave
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09-20-2019, 11:07 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr_dave View Post
FYI, this question is addressed on the jump cue resource page.

Check it out,
Dave
It appears that the two differences that make LD shafts jump so much worse than regular cues is less stiffness and poorer "hit efficiency" (which I take to mean transferring less force).

My very low squirt cue feels very stiff because of its conical taper - does that reduce stiffness as a jump factor?
The conical taper increases the stiffness away from the tip gradually, but the stiffness close to the tip is still a lot less than with a typical jump cue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
Does low end mass play a direct role in hit efficiency?
I don't think so. The tip properties (leather vs. phenolic) and the vibrations remaining in the shaft after the hit determine the hit efficiency. A jump cue has good efficiency on both accounts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
Thanks again for all the great info you regularly provide us!
You're very welcome. As you know, I aim to swerve.

Regards,
Dave
  
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  (#68)
erhino41
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09-20-2019, 11:45 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
Comes up for me every time I try to jump with my LD shaft...

pj <- LD shaft fan
chgo
Oh, you were serious. Sorry. I don't jump with my playing cue and I've never tried to jump with an ld shaft. I kick far more often than I jump and if jump cues weren't allowed I would kick every time, no second thoughts.


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explain please
Old
  (#69)
ShootingArts
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explain please - 09-20-2019, 11:54 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
I think it's simpler than that.

More or less deflection only means you have to hit the same CB spot with the cue angled a little differently to get the same direction of force through the CB, giving the same spin, swerve and everything else.

pj
chgo


pj,

You have made this statement quite a few times. Please explain what you move to be able to hit the cue ball in the same place at different angles.

Thanks,
Hu
  
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  (#70)
erhino41
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09-20-2019, 11:57 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hits 'em Hard View Post
Iíve complained of that issue since I tried an LD shaft. I can only assume itís a combo between itís LD properties, and front end materials. There are some that work, that pros demonstrate routinely in matches. And some that never work. Or is it all stroke? I can jump full cue no problem. Playing and break. But not with an LD shaft for whatever reason.
Out of curiosity which pros jump with ld shafts?

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  (#71)
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09-20-2019, 12:09 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShootingArts View Post
pj,

You have made this statement quite a few times. Please explain what you move to be able to hit the cue ball in the same place at different angles.

Thanks,
Hu
Here's a good illustration from PJ (from the LD shaft resource page) that illustrates the effect:


Regards,
Dave
  
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  (#72)
Patrick Johnson
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09-20-2019, 05:08 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by erhino41 View Post
Oh, you were serious. Sorry. I don't jump with my playing cue and I've never tried to jump with an ld shaft. I kick far more often than I jump and if jump cues weren't allowed I would kick every time, no second thoughts.


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Try it with an LD shaft sometime...

pj <- either you won't like it or I suck at jumping (maybe both)
chgo
  
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  (#73)
Patrick Johnson
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09-20-2019, 05:25 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
More or less deflection only means you have to hit the same CB spot with the cue angled a little differently to get the same direction of force through the CB, giving the same spin, swerve and everything else.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShootingArts View Post
pj,

You have made this statement quite a few times. Please explain what you move to be able to hit the cue ball in the same place at different angles.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr_dave View Post
Here's a good illustration from PJ (from the LD shaft resource page) that illustrates the effect:
Thanks, Dave - I was going to post the same illustration.

Hu, what this illustrates is that no matter what cue you use, if you hit the same CB spot with the same amount of force, and if you angle the cue correctly for squirt, then all cues produce the same force in the same direction through the CB. The CB can't "feel" which way the cue is angled or the tip is moving at impact, it only "feels" the direction of the force, which has been redirected by squirt. So all the cues in the diagram "feel" the same to the CB and produce the same CB action.

Hope this clarifies my meaning,

pj
chgo

P.S. 1. The squirt angles in the diagram are exaggerated. 2. Of course there's no such thing (yet) as a "no squirt" cue.

Last edited by Patrick Johnson; 09-20-2019 at 07:34 PM.
  
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Patrick Johnson
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09-20-2019, 07:24 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
Hu, what this illustrates is that no matter what cue you use, if you hit the same CB spot with the same amount of force, and if you angle the cue correctly for squirt, then all cues produce the same force in the same direction through the CB. The CB can't "feel" which way the cue is angled or the tip is moving at impact, it only "feels" the direction of the force, which has been redirected by squirt. So all the cues in the diagram "feel" the same to the CB and produce the same CB action.

Hope this clarifies my meaning,
P.S. I think this also illustrates how the miscue limit and maximum spin amount are the same for all cues, and why swoop strokes are useless.

pj <- but that's another thread (or two)
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So the bridge hand and grip hand are both on different lines?
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ShootingArts
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So the bridge hand and grip hand are both on different lines? - 09-21-2019, 12:25 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
P.S. I think this also illustrates how the miscue limit and maximum spin amount are the same for all cues, and why swoop strokes are useless.

pj <- but that's another thread (or two)
chgo


pj,

I didn't want to lead you but you didn't even come close to answering my question. To put it another way, to get the same effect with the low deflection cue as with the high deflection cue, you have to place both your bridge and grip hand on a different line than that used with a high deflection cue. Yes or no?

Hu
  
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