Scopping cue ball foul?

dr_dave · Oct 21, 2019

Double-Dave said:
It doesn't matter if it's a double hit or not, a "scoop jump" is always a foul, ergo ball in hand for you opponent.

As others have pointed out, this is not true unless the scoop is intentional (e.g., to illegally clear over an blocking opponent ball).

Double-Dave said:
Dr. Dave's video's have shown you can scoop with and without a double hit

For those interested, the video and surrounding discussion can be found on the illegal scoop jump shot resource page. Here's a direct link to the pertinent video:

HSV B.2 – Illegal “scoop” jump shots

Regards,
Dave

Fatboy · Oct 21, 2019

Maniac said:
I know exactly what you two guys are talking about, but I had a hard time trying to find the words to describe how the double hit miscue and a non-double hit miscue differ in sound. Describing the way a double hit miscue "feels" also eluded me.

I can tell when I've double hit a cue ball, but in my mind I cannot seem to come up with a way to describe it.

You guys want to try and describe it?

Maniac

I can’t-just don’t have the words.

It’s clear when it happens and can feel the double hit for sure. And as Hu and I mentioned you should call the foul on yourself-no exception.

Sorry can’t do better then that. Experience is the best teacher.

Best
Fatboy

dr_dave · Oct 21, 2019

Patrick Johnson said:
https://wpapool.com/rules-of-play/#Definitions

8.18 Miscue

A miscue occurs when the cue tip slides off the cue ball possibly due to a contact that is too eccentric or to insufficient chalk on the tip. It is usually accompanied by a sharp sound and evidenced by a discoloration of the tip. Although some miscues involve contact of the side of the cue stick with the cue ball, unless such contact is clearly visible, it is assumed not to have occurred. A scoop shot, in which the cue tip contacts the playing surface and the cue ball at the same time and this causes the cue ball to rise off the cloth, is treated like a miscue. Note that intentional miscues are covered by 6.17 Unsportsmanlike Conduct (c).

Based on what I have seen in lots of slo-mo video, most (not just some) miscues involve secondary contact. Regardless, they are not considered fouls unless the secondary contact is visually obvious. Sometimes the sound of a miscue seems to imply obvious secondary shaft contact (wood slapping sound), but that is not sufficient evidence. For those interested, lots of examples of miscues in slow motion can be found here:

HSV B.36 – Various miscues with double-hit rule interpretation

And examples where miscues are visually obvious or "intentional" (possibly resulting in an unsportsmanlike conduct penalty) can be found here:

miscue fouls resource page

Enjoy,
Dave

pt109 · Oct 21, 2019

dr_dave said:
As others have pointed out, this is not true unless the scoop is intentional (e.g., to illegally clear over an blocking opponent ball).

For those interested, the video and surrounding discussion can be found on the illegal scoop jump shot resource page. Here's a direct link to the pertinent video:

HSV B.2 – Illegal “scoop” jump shots

Regards,
Dave

I hate it when I ‘scop’ a ball....and it’s not covered in your video......

jimmyco · Oct 21, 2019

RiverCity said:
I posted that above. But apparently Im speaking goddamn chinese.

Try buddhadamn chinese next time.

Bob Jewett · Oct 21, 2019

Black-Balled said:
You aren't goddamn Chinese? Wtf?!

I always figured his real name was 河城.

As for the OP, in all of the written-down, formal rulesets I know of, an unintentional miscue is not by itself a foul, as others have mentioned. A small exception is mentioned above: a miscue on a jump shot is sometimes automatically considered to be intentional and therefor a foul. That seems like a hard rule to apply. Sometimes you get a sort of partial miscue, and often a jump shot with a phenolic tip sounds like a miscue (and maybe is).

I used to occasionally miscue over the cue ball when it was frozen to the cushion. Sometimes my cue stick would stop on top of the cue ball with the cue ball sitting there a short distance from the cushion trapped under the stick. We usually called this a foul.:grin: I haven't done that for a decade or two.

jimmyco · Oct 21, 2019

Bob Jewett said:
I always figured his real name was 河城.

As for the OP, in all of the written-down, formal rulesets I know of, an unintentional miscue is not by itself a foul, as others have mentioned. A small exception is mentioned above: a miscue on a jump shot is sometimes automatically considered to be intentional and therefor a foul. That seems like a hard rule to apply. Sometimes you get a sort of partial miscue, and often a jump shot with a phenolic tip sounds like a miscue (and maybe is).

I used to occasionally miscue over the cue ball when it was frozen to the cushion. Sometimes my cue stick would stop on top of the cue ball with the cue ball sitting there a short distance from the cushion trapped under the stick. We usually called this a foul.:grin: I haven't done that for a decade or two.

What is your tried and true remedy?

dr_dave · Oct 21, 2019

jimmyco said:
Bob Jewett said:

I used to occasionally miscue over the cue ball when it was frozen to the cushion. Sometimes my cue stick would stop on top of the cue ball with the cue ball sitting there a short distance from the cushion trapped under the stick. We usually called this a foul.:grin: I haven't done that for a decade or two.

Click to expand...

What is your tried and true remedy?

I had this issue in the past also. My solution was to be very careful to not drop my elbow (which I had a tendency to do) on shots like this.

Regards,
Dave

dr_dave · Oct 21, 2019

dr_dave said:
I had this issue in the past also. My solution was to be very careful to not drop my elbow (which I had a tendency to do) on shots like this.

In fact, there are several types of shots where "dropping my elbow" (which I always tended to do naturally) has caused problems for me. The message I learned is: Keep My Elbow Frickin' Elbow ... on any shot. Unfortunately, I still need to give myself constant reminders with certain types of shots (elevated shots, long follow shots, draw shots).

Regards,
Dave

PS: For those interested, reasons to keep the elbow still can be found on the elbow drop resource page.

Patrick Johnson · Oct 21, 2019

dr_dave said:
I had this issue in the past also. My solution was to be very careful to not drop my elbow (which I had a tendency to do) on shots like this.

Regards,
Dave

As you show in this video, multiple hits can be unavoidable when you need to hit the top of the CB with an elevated cue.

pj
chgo

buckshotshoey · Oct 21, 2019

RiverCity said:
I posted that above. But apparently Im speaking goddamn chinese.

No you're not speaking Chinese. He didn't understand you because your handwriting sucks.:grin:

ShootingArts · Oct 21, 2019

chinese food

Maniac said:
I know exactly what you two guys are talking about, but I had a hard time trying to find the words to describe how the double hit miscue and a non-double hit miscue differ in sound. Describing the way a double hit miscue "feels" also eluded me.

I can tell when I've double hit a cue ball, but in my mind I cannot seem to come up with a way to describe it.

You guys want to try and describe it?

Maniac

It's kind of like chinese food. My sister was debating getting a spring roll. She asked the owner the difference between an egg roll and a spring roll. He said "Tastes different." It became a favorite answer when we had no answer to any question and it is the only short answer to your question. The sound is sometimes subtly different, sometimes a lot different, depending on the shot. Same with the feel. Sometimes it is a slight tick, sometimes it feels like the cue ball ran up the cue.

The difference in sound or feel can be so slight that perhaps we miss it sometimes. I suspect I would miss sound very often now, my high frequency hearing is almost comically bad. Fortunately I play a more conservative game and can't remember my last miscue.

Good question, I don't think any of the three of us have answered it well. Like a lot of things in pool, it may come down to HAMB. Then you know.

Hu

RiverCity · Oct 21, 2019

buckshotshoey said:
No you're not speaking Chinese. He didn't understand you because your handwriting sucks.:grin:

Well, I do WRITE in chinese...... :thumbup:

jrctherake · Oct 21, 2019

jimmyco said:
What is your tried and true remedy?

I tried to stay off the rail. Then again, I get tired and need something to hold on to.

Catch 22 or 23???

Jeff

jrctherake · Oct 21, 2019

ShootingArts said:
Like a lot of things in pool, it may come down to HAMB. Then you know.

Hu

Hu,

I've decided that my HAMB in pool is very similar to my finances:

I've given up on the first HAMB and started trying to hit another million balls.

Also, do you know how much a million balls cost? Also, where in the hell am I suppose to put these million balls until I hit them?

Jeff

ShootingArts · Oct 21, 2019

If I could just get a penny apiece for them ...

jrctherake said:
Hu,

I've decided that my HAMB in pool is very similar to my finances:

I've given up on the first HAMB and started trying to hit another million balls.

Also, do you know how much a million balls cost? Also, where in the hell am I suppose to put these million balls until I hit them?

Jeff

Jeff,

I figure I am past two million now. If I could just find them and get a penny apiece for them I could be retired in the style I desire!

Hu

dr_dave · Oct 21, 2019

Patrick Johnson said:
As you show in this video, multiple hits can be unavoidable when you need to hit the top of the CB with an elevated cue.

For you and others who might be interested in this shot, see the article I wrote about it in BD:

“Legal Fouls” (BD, Nov, 2016)

This is a good example shot that is legal even though it is technically a foul, as with most (practically all) miscues, due to secondary contact (multiple hits).

Enjoy,
Dave

jimmyco · Oct 21, 2019

dr_dave said:
I had this issue in the past also. My solution was to be very careful to not drop my elbow (which I had a tendency to do) on shots like this.

Regards,
Dave

Thank you Doc.

pt109 · Oct 21, 2019

jrctherake said:
I tried to stay off the rail. Then again, I get tired and need something to hold on to.

Catch 22 or 23???

Jeff

YMCA rules still lives.....saw a guy at the pool hall yesterday...he was froze to the rail...
...put the butt of the cue between the rail and the cue ball....
...his two playing partners didn’t blink an eye.

BC21 · Oct 21, 2019

ShootingArts said:
Most rulebooks say that a miscue is a foul in itself, any miscue.

Which rule books? Just curious. I don't think I've ever seen this in any rule book. Intentional miscues, yes, but not unintentional miscues, unless the miscue results in a bad hit or no hit or a scratch. Maybe that rule has changed and I should brush up on all the rules to make sure nothing else has changed.

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