Full rack Rotation

atlas333 said:

Does anyone else think that, with pool evolving, we are heading to a world where full rack rotation, on a 10' table, will become the ultimate title for pros?

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The ultimate title for pros will always be 14.1 continuous to 150.

Now you're talking! I started playing a lot of Rotation 15 years ago in the Philippines where it is the primary pool game. I learned to love this game, both difficult and very creative. I can see why Efren excelled at One Pocket. He already knew so much about the interaction of the balls from playing Rotation all his life. Compared to Rotation, 9-Ball is a kid's game.

I also agree with Mitch above that Straight Pool is an excellent test of skill. But no one will ever run 150 and out playing Rotation. A Race to Nine, Ten or Eleven would be fantastic matches to watch. Both players will have opportunities and there will be a lot more play to each game. Running one rack is an achievement and two racks in a row would be rare.

atlas333 said:

Does anyone else think that, with pool evolving, we are heading to a world where full rack rotation, on a 10' table, will become the ultimate title for pros?
And if so how long will it take for that to happen. I am thinking we could see this happen in 10 years.
It's just an idea that cameto me.
Paul

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Just do it on a 12' Snooker table, with a complete ball set and cue ball.

Goal

atlas333 said:

Does anyone else think that, with pool evolving, we are heading to a world where full rack rotation, on a 10' table, will become the ultimate title for pros?
And if so how long will it take for that to happen. I am thinking we could see this happen in 10 years.
It's just an idea that cameto me.
Paul

Click to expand...

Paul, this is a great question. Unfortunately the answer depends on what our goal is as a player population.

If we want a format that sorts out who the best pool players are and reduces the role of the break shot and pattern racking, then 15 ball rotation would definitely do the trick. So would a mandatory push out after the break. Or a number of other rules.

Currently, however, the rules are made by the tournament promoters. They are not interested in finding out who the best players are. They are interested in filling up their tournaments and their bleachers. If they adjusted the rules to make the game more difficult then less mid level pros would take a shot, and the tournaments wouldn't fill. Meanwhile it would slow the pace of play and it's possible that they'd lose the few viewers they already have. Oh, sure, we'd watch, but it's unlikely that the average viewer would.

This is the same reason so many amateur tournaments are handicapped and limited to 600 or below fargo rate. Easier to fill fields.

Now, I'm not saying it couldn't be done, or that it shouldn't be done. I think it's heartbreaking that top pros can spend many years developing their skills at a game this tough to the highest levels ever seen by man, only to remain second tier because they don't have the break or jump skills of a Filler or Fedor. I would much prefer to see more clusters, safeties, kicking, along with more difficult run outs. And I think there could be a market for it with the right promoter. But sadly it seems like the game gets easier with every alteration. From 10' to 9' (and 7'), from straight pool to 9 ball, to faster cloth, to magic racks, to jump sticks, etc. Can anyone think of a single change to the game that's made it more difficult?

In the end I don't get to make the rules, I just have to play the games that others make. I will say this though. If someone wants to run a 15 ball tournament I will attend!

Filler

atlas333 said:

Jay I was watching you commentait sonething on youtube yesterday and it reminds me that you always have something insigthful to say.

I really think it would be amazing to watch a Filler dominate a full rack on a 10 footer

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I think it would be funny to have a video of Filler running out a rack of 10 ball on a bar table, then a 9', then a 10', then a Chinese 8 ball table, then a snooker table, then finally have him on a billiard table shooting a ball into a corner rail. He could then look at the camera and say "I found my limit!"

Thank you

atlas333 said:

Tinman I always love your well thought outs posts. I would love to do a boot camp one day.
I realize this wont be a big tournament format, but just an end of year invitational kind of thing to slug it out to see who is the King .

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Thank you atlas. Yeah, I'm right there with you. Even if we didn't switch the game up, we could switch up the format for a cool result.

I've said before I really like the way chess does it. They have a world championship where the reigning champ plays the contender. The contender has to win a tournament called the 'candidates tournament' (which is going on right now!). Whoever wins gets to play for the title this November.
Then the world championship itself is a 12 game series, each one lasting 5-7 hours in general. If they split games they play 4 rapid games. They play the first 12 games over 3 weeks.

Imagine if we had something similar. A big tournament to decide the challenger, maybe double elimination race to 15, and an extended set race to 21 finals. Then the winner would play the title holder in a series of races to 21, best of 13 sets.

To me this would be absolutely gripping. It wouldn't eliminate the role of the break, but it would give time for that to even out and allow each player to make adjustments between sets, etc. I know I'd be hanging on my seat. And whoever won would truly deserve the title of not just world champion, but actually the best in the world.

Once a year would be enough. The rest of the time we can play Mosconi Cup style!

I have thought it would be nice to have a tourney and have all kinds and different size tables. They would have different cloth and balls, and from slow to very fast, and different size pockets. There would be more whinning than ever before and you would know who the best player is.

Paul, this is a great question. Unfortunately the answer depends on what our goal is as a player population.

If we want a format that sorts out who the best pool players are and reduces the role of the break shot and pattern racking, then 15 ball rotation would definitely do the trick. So would a mandatory push out after the break. Or a number of other rules.

Currently, however, the rules are made by the tournament promoters. They are not interested in finding out who the best players are.

Click to expand...

Tap, tap, tap!

I wish Texas express rules would disappear out of all tournaments and go back to push-out. When i watched higher stakes pool games in the 70's - early 80's it was mostly push-out rules (& the race was so many ahead). I realize that you can't do ahead races for tournaments, but taking the guaranteed safety out of the equation would reward more creative play including the 2,3,4, rail kicks and banks that used to be seen. I think anyone that saw that kind of action, is why 14.1 seemed so dull in comparison. (That and the disappearance of actual pool halls.)

One-pocket is about the only game where that level of creative shot making is still worth "a shot" or even can become necessary in an end game.

When i got back into pool a few years ago, it was all Texas express and every game has safeties. Love the idea of 15 ball rotation, but i think the key to preventing one player dominance on a lucky break or early safety, & to reward/encourage creative shots, is to play push-out option any time the incoming player does not have direct line of sight access to the object ball.

smt

jay helfert said:

Now you're talking! I started playing a lot of Rotation 15 years ago in the Philippines where it is the primary pool game. I learned to love this game, both difficult and very creative. I can see why Efren excelled at One Pocket. He already knew so much about the interaction of the balls from playing Rotation all his life. Compared to Rotation, 9-Ball is a kid's game.

I also agree with Mitch above that Straight Pool is an excellent test of skill. But no one will ever run 150 and out playing Rotation. A Race to NIne, Ten or Eleven would be fantastic matches to watch. Both players will have opportunities and there will be a lot more play to each game. Runnin one rack is an achievement and two racks in a row would be rare.

Click to expand...

When I was a junior in high school, there was a gas station/beer joint down the road that had an old National 9 footer. Back then, it was ok for underage kids to hang out, but no drinking. At night, there was always a crowd, ring games or partners were the only times you got to play, light gambling to weed out the bangers.
Nickel a stick per game, so we played a lot of rotation to get bang for our buck. Some late afternoons, you could get some one on one play. Guy came in I'd never seen and wanted to play a game and I suggested rotation. I broke and ran on him, the only time I ever remember doing it. He hung up his stick and asked my name and how old I was.
Long story short, he owned a commercial electric construction company and had stopped off for a beer on his way home. After talking for a few minutes, he offered me a summer job with his company. Worked for him for 2 summers. After the second summer, he offered to send me to college to study electrical engineering. I turned him down so as not to waste his money. I was not a fan of school, stayed just eligible enough to play sports, crip courses.
I liked to work and learned very much those two summers. He was a great guy and we kept in touch over the years.

Tin Man said:

... Can anyone think of a single change to the game that's made it more difficult?...

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In some events:

Equipment changes -- larger tables (Bigfoot event), tighter pockets (smaller mouths, deeper shelves)

Rule changes -- location of rack (9-ball on spot), location of breaker (in a box of various sizes), definition of a legal break (3-pt. rules of various types)

Tin Man said:

... Imagine if we had something similar. A big tournament to decide the challenger ... Then the winner would play the title holder ....

Click to expand...

They did that sometimes in Mosconi's era.

Tin Man said:

I think it would be funny to have a video of Filler running out a rack of 10 ball on a bar table, then a 9', then a 10', then a Chinese 8 ball table, then a snooker table, then finally have him on a billiard table shooting a ball into a corner rail. He could then look at the camera and say "I found my limit!"

Click to expand...

You have a strange sense of humor, but I like it!

rh1919 said:

When I was a junior in high school, there was a gas station/beer joint down the road that had an old National 9 footer. Back then, it was ok for underage kids to hang out, but no drinking. At night, there was always a crowd, ring games or partners were the only times you got to play, light gambling to weed out the bangers.
Nickel a stick per game, so we played a lot of rotation to get bang for our buck. Some late afternoons, you could get some one on one play. Guy came in I'd never seen and wanted to play a game and I suggested rotation. I broke and ran on him, the only time I ever remember doing it. He hung up his stick and asked my name and how old I was.
Long story short, he owned a commercial electric construction company and had stopped off for a beer on his way home. After talking for a few minutes, he offered me a summer job with his company. Worked for him for 2 summers. After the second summer, he offered to send me to college to study electrical engineering. I turned him down so as not to waste his money. I was not a fan of school, stayed just eligible enough to play sports, crip courses.
I liked to work and learned very much those two summers. He was a great guy and we kept in touch over the years.

Click to expand...

You must have lived in the Midwest somewhere. There were many poolrooms equipped with Nationals (a very good table). I can relate to your story. I had an opportunity to go to West Point, but when I thought about the commitment (four years of school and then a six year Army commitment) I was no longer interested. All I wanted to do back then was hang out in the poolroom and shoot pool all day......and night.

I used to come home around 7AM, about the same time my father was leaving for his work at the hospital (he was a doctor). God bless him, he never criticized me even though I know he was disappointed in my career choice. I could tell he frowned on my excessive pool playing, until the time he visited my first poolroom in Bakersfield. I was only 27 and the place was packed every night. My dad was impressed, maybe the first time in my life I could tell he was proud of me.

atlas333 said:

Does anyone else think that, with pool evolving, we are heading to a world where full rack rotation, on a 10' table, will become the ultimate title for pros?
And if so how long will it take for that to happen. I am thinking we could see this happen in 10 years.
It's just an idea that cameto me.
Paul

Click to expand...

Based on its rapid growth and healthy pay-outs i think Chinese 8-ball could very well be the big pro game before long.

Ssonerai said:

Tap, tap, tap!

I wish Texas express rules would disappear out of all tournaments and go back to push-out. When i watched higher stakes pool games in the 70's - early 80's it was mostly push-out rules (& the race was so many ahead). I realize that you can't do ahead races for tournaments, but taking the guaranteed safety out of the equation would reward more creative play including the 2,3,4, rail kicks and banks that used to be seen. I think anyone that saw that kind of action, is why 14.1 seemed so dull in comparison. (That and the disappearance of actual pool halls.)

One-pocket is about the only game where that level of creative shot making is still worth "a shot" or even can become necessary in an end game.

When i got back into pool a few years ago, it was all Texas express and every game has safeties. Love the idea of 15 ball rotation, but i think the key to preventing one player dominance on a lucky break or early safety, & to reward/encourage creative shots, is to play push-out option any time the incoming player does not have direct line of sight access to the object ball.

smt

Click to expand...

Yeah! When I twist a bank backwards and spin whitey 3 rails for shape on the shot side of the next ball, you should be able to push if I miss?

That is ridiculous. You shoot from where the ball stops. Quit yer wigglin.

jay helfert said:

You must have lived in the Midwest somewhere. There were many poolrooms equipped with Nationals (a very good table). I can relate to your story. I had an opportunity to go to West Point, but when I thought about the commitment (four years of school and then a six year Army commitment) I was no longer interested. All I wanted to do back then was hang out in the poolroom and shoot pool all day......and night.

I used to come home around 7AM, about the same time my father was leaving for his work at the hospital (he was a doctor). God bless him, he never criticized me even though I know he was disappointed in my career choice. I could tell he frowned on my excessive pool playing, until the time he visited my first poolroom in Bakersfield. I was only 27 and the place was packed every night. My dad was impressed, maybe the first time in my life I could tell he was proud of me.

Click to expand...

This was in Charlotte, NC. Solid old table, for sure. One foot on the floor was a myth at that time, played very level (maybe because we shot so hard) pockets had to be 5 3/4" . It was also at one time coin operated with ball return. The slot was for a nickel.