I know weight is a matter of preference, but I got a question

asbani · Mar 30, 2020

Physics question:

Let's say an example, on a draw shot.

We have the same player, with the same exact stroke every single time, shooting one time with 19oz cue, then another time with the exact same cue but reduced to 17oz.

Let's assume he shot the same shot with both, and also same emotion, backstroke, everything to the teeth, also he hit down on the cueball on the same exact point.

Now my question is, with which cue does the cueball travel further to the back?

straightline · Mar 31, 2020

There might be other variables such as speed of the stroke where switching cues might have an adverse effect on the shot.

My best guess regardless is, with a fluid unforced stroke, the 19 will break the ball loose efficiently where the 17 might have insufficient mass to do so.

asbani · Mar 31, 2020

straightline said:
There might be other variables such as speed of the stroke where switching cues might have an adverse effect on the shot.

My best guess regardless is, with a fluid unforced stroke, the 19 will break the ball loose efficiently where the 17 might have insufficient mass to do so.

All variables are the same, speed of stroke is the same.

It's not a break shot, it's a draw shot.

straightline · Mar 31, 2020

I'm saying there is a zone where the results can toggle between the two weights. For instance if you only use tip speed as the constant, the lower speeds will favor the 19 because of the higher impact mass. Whereas, higher speeds, the 17 because of the reduced impact mass; reciprocal behavior simply due to tip speed.

mikemosconi · Mar 31, 2020

Here is what I think your REAL question is: You attach a 19 ounce cue to a robot and have it execute a draw stroke. You then take that same cue, remove a 2 ounce weight bolt from that cue, reattach to a robot and execute a second draw stroke from the same distances. With all else being EXACTLY equal; except for the removal of 2 ounces from the same cue- is the draw distance of the cue ball different?

I don't know! MY GUESS is the heavier mass draws the cue ball further back if EVERY other possible variable is a constant. We need a physics person to weigh in here to be correct for sure.

asbani · Mar 31, 2020

mikemosconi said:
Here is what I think your REAL question is: You attach a 19 ounce cue to a robot and have it execute a draw stroke. You then take that same cue, remove a 2 ounce weight bolt from that cue, reattach to a robot and execute a second draw stroke from the same distances. With all else being EXACTLY equal; except for the removal of 2 ounces from the same cue- is the draw distance of the cue ball different?

I don't know! MY GUESS is the heavier mass draws the cue ball further back if EVERY other possible variable is a constant. We need a physics person to weigh in here to be correct for sure.

Yes thats my question, exactly.

straightline · Mar 31, 2020

mikemosconi said:
Here is what I think your REAL question is: You attach a 19 ounce cue to a robot and have it execute a draw stroke. You then take that same cue, remove a 2 ounce weight bolt from that cue, reattach to a robot and execute a second draw stroke from the same distances. With all else being EXACTLY equal; except for the removal of 2 ounces from the same cue- is the draw distance of the cue ball different?

I don't know! MY GUESS is the heavier mass draws the cue ball further back if EVERY other possible variable is a constant. We need a physics person to weigh in here to be correct for sure.

Think about this. If Willie is set too strong, the ram effect will favor the light cue. Conversely, if Willie is set too weak, the nerf effect will favor the heavier cue.

'Course I don't know either...

336Robin · Mar 31, 2020

Training Cue

I'm working with this some right now. As for the physics part that would be
Dr. Dave. I am looking at it from the players perspective where Speed Control is
concerned. The more weight in a cue the more energy transferred during the hit. This means that with a lighter cue its
less about the weight of the cue and more about the stroke.

I had a cue maker make me a butt that when paired with my shafts I was in the 15.50 ounce range and I am still playing with it
and have already played with it several times. I've tested my position getting ability with it on all kinds of shots.

Todays cloth is a fine weave and the ball rolls a long time. When you add into that the weight that some players play with that adds in
the factor of inertia or more energy transfer. Simply put...its easy for a player to over hit the ball.

I like to play One Pocket and that game is cue ball control game. I am moving the cue ball with more precision since going lighter.

My findings have me believing that anyone could benefit from having a lighter cue, if for no other reason than stroke training purposes.
If cue ball travel becomes more dependent on stroke then the quality of your stroke becomes the highlight of what you do and it has
a chance for the player to straight it out and because of less energy being transferred to the cue ball, you'll learn to control the cue ball a little easier.

However if you are a player that needs the extra weight of a 19.5 ounce cue to move the cue ball you'll feel like you're working a little harder.

To answer your question it is a matter of preference but my opinion is everyone should have one ultralight cue. It's still very likely that instead of going all
the way back up to a 19 ounce cue that a player might end up in the 17. something to 18 ounce range and be just fine.

Cloth went from coarse to fine and cue ball travel distances increased. Going lighter would make sense especially for a training cue.

asbani said:
Physics question:

Let's say an example, on a draw shot.

We have the same player, with the same exact stroke every single time, shooting one time with 19oz cue, then another time with the exact same cue but reduced to 17oz.

Let's assume he shot the same shot with both, and also same emotion, backstroke, everything to the teeth, also he hit down on the cueball on the same exact point.

Now my question is, with which cue does the cueball travel further to the back?

johnnysd · Mar 31, 2020

DR Dave has already done the analysis:

https://billiards.colostate.edu/technical_proofs/new/TP_A-30.pdf

And on cue weight

https://billiards.colostate.edu/faq/cue/weight/

At the same speed a heavier cue will create more speed, but the force is essentially force=mass * acceleration so a lighter cue stroked faster can produce more speed.

In the end it comes down to have fast the player can reliably produce speed with a given weight of cue. That will be different for each player, as some may be able to stroke a cue much faster with a light cue and generate more power, some more power with a heavier cue. It is exactly analagous to baseball. Babe Ruth used a super heavy bat Barry Bonds a really light one. Ruths swing was slower with more mass, Bonds much faster with less. Neither would likely have been as good with the other's bat

BC21 · Mar 31, 2020

Speed and force at impact determine cb speed, spin, action. The 17oz cue would have to move slightly faster to match the draw achieved with the 19oz cue. But honestly it's such a small amount of difference that I doubt most players would notice it.

If you use a 19oz cue forever, then pick up a 17oz and hit a draw shot that gets more action than normal, it's because your stroke arm is applying the same feel for speed as you typically use with the 19oz cue, but at 2oz lighter the 17oz cue will move a little faster, whether it feels like it or not.

I recently changed to a super soft tip after using a hard tip for years. The main difference I notice is that I have to stroke a touch lower to achieve the same draw action I used to get with the hard. The soft tip absorbs more of the impact, not transferring the same force as the hard tip. It's a slight difference, mainly noticeable on short little draw shots. Instead of trying to stroke a touch faster/firmer, I find it easier to just strike a touch lower.

mikemosconi · Mar 31, 2020

I have found myself moving to a lighter cue over the years - now to something around 18.5 as being ideal for me. The more I think about it now, it was probably the increased speed of cloth and cushions that made me feel like the lighter cue is more effective for me. I never thought about the reasons before; but this all makes sense. In the 60s, there were a lot of 20 to 21 ounce cues, and the tables were much slower in most cases.

garczar · Mar 31, 2020

asbani said:
Physics question:

Let's say an example, on a draw shot.

We have the same player, with the same exact stroke every single time, shooting one time with 19oz cue, then another time with the exact same cue but reduced to 17oz.

Let's assume he shot the same shot with both, and also same emotion, backstroke, everything to the teeth, also he hit down on the cueball on the same exact point.

Now my question is, with which cue does the cueball travel further to the back?

You REALLY have waaaaaaaaaaaay too much time on your hands.

mikemosconi · Mar 31, 2020

garczar said:
You REALLY have waaaaaaaaaaaay too much time on your hands.

A lot of us DO right now. HA HA! but not really funny- I guess he is just keeping his mind occupied in these trying times for all- I can think of worse things to be thinking about than pool right now. The online gambling sites are humming- there goes the stimulus checks! Have a friend who is a compulsive gambler and I don't play the horses, he spent an hour with me on the phone yesterday trying to get me to sign up- no thanks!

deanoc · Mar 31, 2020

put an ounce weight on your own cue and try it out

the heavier cue will hit harder with the same other variables but slower stroke may produce more spin

PM Dr DAve
he will understand the question ,know the physics and hae done the experiment
so the cleanliness of theory may not jive with the mess of reality and he will know and have the ability to explain

i wouls think the difference between 24 ounces and 19 woulsd be a better experiment to start

garczar · Mar 31, 2020

Ok, WTF, i'll bite. IMO draw is a product of a pure strike and tip speed. The minimal difference in cue weight will make little-to-no difference in how much draw you get. If the difference in weight was big, say 5+ oz's, you MIGHT see a lil difference just cause it's harder to generate speed with a heavy cue. I've owned cues from 16 to 22oz's over the years. Never noticed any difference in my ability to snatch whitey. I'm sure one of the science nerds on here will destroy my answer. Like i care.

Cron · Mar 31, 2020

mikemosconi said:
Have a friend who is a compulsive gambler and I don't play the horses, he spent an hour with me on the phone yesterday trying to get me to sign up- no thanks!

Although the exact words may differ, just know this conversation happened...

-- Several years ago at a Baptism --

Jon: It's nice to see you all again, it's been a while.

Bob: Yes, thank you for coming. Were excited to see so many people.

Jon: Well, we don't want to miss this.

Bob: We weren't sure on the colors at first. First we thought.... hold on... (Bob pulls out his phone).

Jon: Hmmm..? What's up?

Bob: Almost missed post time.

Patrick Johnson · Mar 31, 2020

If you put the same energy into your stoke you'll move a lighter cue faster, a heavier cue slower, and they'll produce the same CB speed/spin.

Energy in = energy out. Cue weight is just the delivery method.

pj <- I think
chgo

Cron · Mar 31, 2020

Read this pdf from Dr Dave (which is in one of the links posted)

https://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/2015/oct15.pdf

straightline · Mar 31, 2020

Patrick Johnson said:
If you put the same energy into your stoke you'll move a lighter cue faster, a heavier cue slower, and they'll produce the same CB speed/spin.

Energy in = energy out. Cue weight is just the delivery method.

pj <- I think
chgo

Therefore I am Groot.

He specified later that the stroke speed is the same but that still leaves the respective displacement mass to consider however negligible.

I am Groot.

Black-Balled · Mar 31, 2020

mikemosconi said:
Here is what I think your REAL question is: You attach a 19 ounce cue to a robot and have it execute a draw stroke. You then take that same cue, remove a 2 ounce weight bolt from that cue, reattach to a robot and execute a second draw stroke from the same distances. With all else being EXACTLY equal; except for the removal of 2 ounces from the same cue- is the draw distance of the cue ball different?

I don't know! MY GUESS is the heavier mass draws the cue ball further back if EVERY other possible variable is a constant. We need a physics person to weigh in here to be correct for sure.

Why do you have to remove the cue from the robot to adjust the weight.

We should have thought of this early in the design phase.

The removal and refitting is adding an additional element of potential interference with results.

I demand a redesign.

L
O
L

I know weight is a matter of preference, but I got a question

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