Grip question for Dr. Dave

longhorns2 said:

The problem with using a heavier cue is the acceleration would decrease, right?Whereas if the hand weight was added, the acceleration would remain roughly the same because no matter what, that weight will always be there in the stroke.

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What is important for break power is cue momentum (cue mass x cue speed) at impact. Please read the entire optimal cue weight resource page. I think it answers all of your questions (and more).

Regards,
Dave

Are we talking about the weight of the hand, on the cue, or are we talking about the amount of energy supplied by the muscles in the arm, when striking the Cue Ball, with the Break Cue. To me, the hand is just gripping the cue, for control of the cue, in the stroke & online, so it goes down the desired path & doesn't go flying, after impact with the Cue Ball... Trying to hit the Cue Ball with Accuracy, some Speed & Control is much more important, than trying to destroy the Cue Ball upon Impact.

This might not work for everyone but it works for me. A light grip on cue, grip hand more forward than normal(choke-up), greater distance from bridge to CB than normal, a bit more erect to get shoulder involved, and the most important to me ... I stand closer to the table than I usually do, starting at a standing position and then I get down into my stance but I leave my feet closer. This forces me to push my body into the stance tensing(coiling) my muscles from my bridge through my back and legs to the floor, then I release this coiled monster on delivery, and with a square hit the CB will come up to 2 feet straight up before it returns to the middle of the table

I don’t know anything about the physics of it all but for practical purposes it seems like a looser grip is better for a vicious break. Better for all shots in general in my experience.

My stepdad plays and he is a death grip breaker. White knuckle and he just powers through the break. He gets pretty good results usually but when I’m playing well and have that fine tuned loose grip I just crush them. I even get a slight ring in my ears after a good break.

Putting all physics aside, the best ways to get more power on the break are summarized and demonstrated here:

power break technique advice

Enjoy,
Dave

tim913 said:

...with a square hit the CB will come up to 2 feet straight up before it returns to the middle of the table

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That's a powerful hit, but I hate to see even that amount of power being diverted to elevating the CB. You might try moving the CB's starting position back a little at a time until the length of its hops match the length of the break and the CB hits the head ball more square (and rebounds more back than up).

pj <- break like the wind
chgo

Patrick Johnson said:

That's a powerful hit, but I hate to see even that amount of power being diverted to elevating the CB. You might try moving the CB's starting position back a little at a time until the length of its hops match the length of the break and the CB hits the head ball more square (and rebounds more back than up).

pj <- break like the wind
chgo

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I'll try that but it is a square hit, the CB is not going left or right, but maybe that would
impart more power to the rack. I really would like to get some player's ideas on how they perform a cut break. I would like to control the balls and the CB more instead of just blowing them up, but I guess that would be another topic... Thanks!

tim913 said:

I'll try that but it is a square hit, the CB is not going left or right

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I mean vertically square, so the CB doesn't jump up.

pj
chgo

I think that if you are looking for cue speed to hit the rack then a light grip would be used.

If you want to break the rack with a lot of force backing up the hit use a more firm grip. Excess speed is the enemy for that type of break.

I think any grip could be used to smash the rack its is all dependent on timing. Get the grip you are most comfortable with and focus in on timing.

As far as the hopping of the cue ball there are a few possibilities. The cueball can be on the way up or on the way down. It can bounce once or twice or hit the head ball in the air all the way. You can try do deliver a perfectly level cue ball. If the cueball hops and lands an inch before the head ball that's a way to pop it up without flying the table. Or if it hits the head ball on the way down but high it will pop up. Sometimes the cue ball will land on the bounce where the cue ball hits the head ball and the cloth at the same time.

nodeflection said:

I think that if you are looking for cue speed to hit the rack then a light grip would be used.

If you want to break the rack with a lot of force backing up the hit use a more firm grip.

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There's no practical difference. Cue speed = force. Whatever grip produces the most cue speed also produces the most force.

Excess speed is the enemy for that type of break.

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Don't even know what this is supposed to mean.

[EDIT: I see Bob beat me to it.]

pj
chgo

Patrick Johnson said:

There's no practical difference. Cue speed = force. Whatever grip produces the most cue speed also produces the most force.

pj
chgo

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There is practically no right answer or we would all not be here. I stand by my advice in light of your equation.

Bob Jewett said:

Uhhh.... You get more force from the cue ball into the rack with more cue ball speed. What you say above is nonsensical.

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Ok, thanks.

Bob Jewett said:

I think you stand alone.:grin:

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........:thumbup:

Break Rak training

longhorns2 said:

I've hear everyone debate about the weight of the cue for breaking, with some saying a light cue can go faster, or a heavier cue has more force, etc. I know f=mv, so they're both right in a way.

But anyway, my question is whether a grip where the cue is firmly in your hand generates more force than a grip more in the fingertips.

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There are a lot of fun thoughts around the break shot which is a very special shot indeed. I can only tell you my experience and outlook and maybe it will help you.

I've been playing with women all my life so my beak shot wasn't any more important than making a big noise. I've wanted to improve that and what I did was to a get a Breakrak unit because I like to practice shots and not reracking. They also have a Radar unit that displays each shot I take in MPH. So I can measure myself too.

So then I picked up a 16oz Viking cue and put a samsara break tip on it. I picked up a Rage 23 oz and finally put a samsara break tip on it. I dug up the old golf club weight and threw that on.. don't do this lol.. I tried using my Lucassi jump shaft, and yes just recently my Massae cue at 25 oz I think, with a soft elk masters tip. That felt so nice btw.

I went to a few pool halls and got people to try it and noted their speeds. Pro's and "Game lovers" are in the 20MPH + area.

So me, well I'm still throwing everything I've got into it and I'm doing a consistent 15,16MPH. While playing around with all of the cue's and chalk and weights I determined they are all useless. It's the archer.

So my suggestion for anyone reading this is to take the advice of Shane and so many others and get a Breakrak with the Radar unit and practice until you have the 20+ speed. Then you will be able to control your slower break shots with more skill in your toolbox to work with.

I'm still practicing but not up to 20+ yet. I'm looking for more snap now and a looser grip seems to be better but practice and find out what works for you to get to 20+ MPH.

Patrick Johnson said:

There's no practical difference. Cue speed = force. Whatever grip produces the most cue speed also produces the most force.


Don't even know what this is supposed to mean.

[EDIT: I see Bob beat me to it.]

pj
chgo

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Are balls and nodeflection the same person?????

garczar said:

Are balls and nodeflection the same person?????

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Good players change their grips depending on the shot, the elevation of the butt from the surface of the table, the distance between the cue ball and the object ball, etc. always with the intent of effectively delivering the cue tip to the required aim on the cue ball. The Grip is just a delivery system. Experiment to discovers what works best for your physiology versus the requirement of the shot. There are no hard and fast rules.