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Brunswick Limited Edition(s)?
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Ssonerai
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Brunswick Limited Edition(s)? - 10-06-2019, 09:07 PM

Is this for real?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/9-EXPOSITIO...75.c100623.m-1

When was it released? Says "165th anniversary" (Brunswick currently claims this year is 170th on website, but BBC history claims 1845 for first table).

Says 25 were built. where were they made?

Seems like if they were going to release an iconic "Anniversary" table, it should have been the Centennial, or the Anniversary. There's demand for those.

Or is this a restored table & i'm just gullible?

On the same subject though, it seems like on eBay and at dealers, the old tables have increased in asking price by multiples of where they were just a few years ago. Wonder if any are selling, or if people just keep putting bigger numbers out there and wishing? I feel a crash coming when this stuff happens.

smt
  
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$30,000 Reproduction?
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$30,000 Reproduction? - 10-07-2019, 01:31 AM

$30,000 Reproduction?
Cheap Knock Off of an originally beautiful table.

Look at the horrible pocket work on this table.

Better to buy an original table that has been restored.
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$30,000 Reproduction?
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$30,000 Reproduction? - 10-07-2019, 01:34 AM

$30,000 Reproduction?
Real deal.
Made by Brunswick.
Most likely in China.

Cheap Knock Off of an originally beautiful table.

Look at the horrible pocket work on this table.

Better to buy an original table that has been restored.

I saw a modern reproduction steamer trunk made by Yves Saint Laurent on Rodeo Drive.
$12,000
Bad corner work on the wooden drawers.
Sharp edges on the metal corner pieces.
Liner material looked like bad wallpaper.
We are not capable of making things with good workmanship nowadays.
I guess that is why antiques and vintage things are in demand.
Easy to spot the difference in craftsmanship and materials.


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Last edited by mchnhed; 10-07-2019 at 05:02 AM.
  
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10-07-2019, 07:00 AM

You're missing the point of my Q.

First, was this on the real? I'm not in the industry, but did B make it, and where (who/where was the subcontractor), exactly, (as opposed to WAG's by people who are unfamiliar with top market wooden products) For instance, it does not look like, (just an example) say, Frank Pollaro's work. But he would be capable. Though more inclined to the art deco stuff, e.g. over-the-top Anniversary style. Actually, a Ruhlmann (per his normal style) inflected table would probably have a market. I imagine the furniture he makes with Brad Pitt sells

second: did B ever do this in the recent past ala Steinway? Or was this a one-off, last gasp attempt at marketing image/ brand enhancement?

Third, who is buying these, did all 25 sell? I am aware of high end clients for outrageously expensive and well made furniture; i don't know any with pool tables. Would be cool if such became a status symbol. (Though that would add to my market crash theory, but might be fun for a couple - 5 years)

Keeping this (sort of ) short: there are a number of formerly luxe or high end makers of iconic items that have traded on their old name and rep in recent years to make knock-offs of their own past accomplishements. With more or less success. Since i work at the fringes of that market, i'm always interested in who and what is going on.
Steinway makes limited edition collector pianos, contracting out to known artists and sculptors. Art case grand pianos. A (late) friend of mine built 5 of them. Another friend whose annual party we attended last weekend gilds most of the "solid" gold Steinways in a nearby shop, when they are ordered. Now if we could get pool tables in the ultra high end mix for a few years before i'm really too old to work....

Actually, final Q - i thought B sold the pool/billiards business. Are/were the L-E tables an original (late Brunswick) initiative, or something by the new owners?

smt

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BCA Show
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BCA Show - 10-07-2019, 07:21 AM

Some years back there was one on display at the BCA Show. Not sure where it was manufactured.


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10-07-2019, 07:32 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ssonerai View Post
You're missing the point of my Q.

First, was this on the real? I'm not in the industry, but did B make it, and where (who/where was the subcontractor), exactly, (as opposed to WAG's by people who are unfamiliar with top market wooden products) For instance, it does not look like, (just an example) say, Frank Pollaro's work. But he would be capable. Though more inclined to the art deco stuff, e.g. over-the-top Anniversary style. Actually, a Ruhlmann (per his normal style) inflected table would probably have a market. I imagine the furniture he makes with Brad Pitt sells

second: did B ever do this in the recent past ala Steinway? Or was this a one-off, last gasp attempt at marketing image/ brand enhancement?

Third, who is buying these, did all 25 sell? I am aware of high end clients for outrageously expensive and well made furniture; i don't know any with pool tables. Would be cool if such became a status symbol. (Though that would add to my market crash theory, but might be fun for a couple - 5 years)

Keeping this (sort of ) short: there are a number of formerly luxe or high end makers of iconic items that have traded on their old name and rep in recent years to make knock-offs of their own past accomplishements. With more or less success. Since i work at the fringes of that market, i'm always interested in who and what is going on.
Steinway makes limited edition collector pianos, contracting out to known artists and sculptors. Art case grand pianos. A (late) friend of mine built 5 of them. Another friend whose annual party we attended last weekend gilds most of the "solid" gold Steinways in a nearby shop, when they are ordered. Now if we could get pool tables in the ultra high end mix for a few years before i'm really too old to work....

Actually, final Q - i thought B sold the pool/billiards business. Are/were the L-E tables an original (late Brunswick) initiative, or something by the new owners?

smt
I just msg'd B'wick about this. See if they reply. Brunswick Billiards was part of the LifeFitness division of Brunswick Corp. They were bought by a investment firm in May. What happens is anybody's guess. Those LE tables were offered back in '10 iirc. Seriously doubt they were made in Bristol. Probably Asia somewhere.

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10-07-2019, 07:34 AM

PS, Mchnhed - I do agree with your analysis of the example table, above the cabinet. Forget the pocket irons which are close to historical, but why would they use honduran mahogany (soft wood) for the rails on a table like that? Should be a much harder wood, as BBC used on their top end table rails from about 1900 - 1930. Brazilian rosewood was typical. Today you could use Pau Fero, cocobola, Ziricote, Bocote, or one of the other hard oily rosewood replacements. Bloodwood for striking contrast. Or some more common cheaper lumber that would actually be better for a rail surface.

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10-07-2019, 08:03 AM

A bit of info here:

https://ir.brunswick.com/news-releas...-featured-wpba


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10-07-2019, 10:35 AM

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Do you think they made here in the States?Possible but i doubt it. Most of their stuff has been made overseas and assembled here for years.
  
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10-09-2019, 01:06 PM

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Do you think they made here in the States?Possible but i doubt it. Most of their stuff has been made overseas and assembled here for years.
I msg'd them about the God Crown. They said the drop pockets, gully's and gully pockets are made in the US. All the rest is outsourced. They've told me previously that Yalin is one of their main suppliers. They didn't say much about the 165th anniv table but i suspect that Yalin had something(if not all) to do with it.
  
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10-09-2019, 02:46 PM

Quote:
They didn't say much about the 165th anniv table but i suspect that Yalin had something(if not all) to do with it.
Bingo!

https://shop67117576.world.taobao.co...pf-to=pcqq.c2c


Plus their "tournament tables" look an awful lot like GC's, but with flimsly (looking) legs.

http://www.yalin.cn/en/news/176.html. Note the Brunswick brand are also sold on the page.

Thanks for that, Garczar. I had never googled the Chinese industry.
Wonder what a genuine GC actually costs Brunswick at the Chinese factory.

smt

PS, I do have to take back my gripe about the rail top surface. Apparently it is Sapele (thought it looked like soft Hond. Mah) "Good" sapele is a little harder than white oak, so should be adequate strictly from performance perspective.

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10-09-2019, 03:54 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ssonerai View Post
Bingo!

https://shop67117576.world.taobao.co...pf-to=pcqq.c2c


Plus their "tournament tables" look an awful lot like GC's, but with flimsly (looking) legs.

http://www.yalin.cn/en/news/176.html. Note the Brunswick brand are also sold on the page.

Thanks for that, Garczar. I had never googled the Chinese industry.
Wonder what a genuine GC actually costs Brunswick at the Chinese factory.

smt

PS, I do have to take back my gripe about the rail top surface. Apparently it is Sapele (thought it looked like soft Hond. Mah) "Good" sapele is a little harder than white oak, so should be adequate strictly from performance perspective.
I shoot some and am fairly up on scopes. Chinese scopes used to SUCK big time. Not anymore. They're capable of making them from really low-end to German quality. Their tables are much the same. You design it and they can build it. I haven't seen a GC6 but the 5 i played on was superb. VERY well made.
  
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10-09-2019, 10:30 PM

Same in woodwhacking equipment and machine tools. The stuff that makes it over here varies depending on the importer. Seems often times the basic unit can be pretty good - then some stupid corners are cut somewhere that wouldn't have taken much to do right. Sometimes it is obvious they just didn't get why certain details are important, or others even "overbuilt" in whatever they were copying. But if they "get" it or if the importer 100% specifies and inspects, they can build it.

Diamond demonstrates that the table business is viable in the USA. Brunswick seems to feel the profit is not high enough, though; compared to importing most of it.

Anyway, thanks for solving the mystery.

smt
  
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10-10-2019, 06:45 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ssonerai View Post
Same in woodwhacking equipment and machine tools. The stuff that makes it over here varies depending on the importer. Seems often times the basic unit can be pretty good - then some stupid corners are cut somewhere that wouldn't have taken much to do right. Sometimes it is obvious they just didn't get why certain details are important, or others even "overbuilt" in whatever they were copying. But if they "get" it or if the importer 100% specifies and inspects, they can build it.

Diamond demonstrates that the table business is viable in the USA. Brunswick seems to feel the profit is not high enough, though; compared to importing most of it.

Anyway, thanks for solving the mystery.

smt
Pool tables is all Diamond does. They know their market/customer base better. BrunswickBilliards for years has been just a tiny part of a large corporation. Brunswick Corp. could have ditched the billiard division long ago and not lost a dime. Why have a factory here when you can farm it out at far less cost and still get a quality table? Smart business if you ask me.
  
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10-10-2019, 07:38 AM

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Originally Posted by Ssonerai View Post
Diamond demonstrates that the table business is viable in the USA. Brunswick seems to feel the profit is not high enough, though; compared to importing most of it.

Anyway, thanks for solving the mystery.

smt

Brunswick Billiards has probably been losing money for at minimum 20+ years. Their model needs to change. They are not even competing in the commercial market and that is where they have been the most influential and successful. Just my $0.02. I contacted KPS Financial in NY to see if they needed any help LOL, I kind of knew I would not hear back from them.

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