APA Rules Question - Pushing through

The push shot is not the issue, its the intentional contact on follow through. If that's not a problem, that's a problem. On the other hand, the APA has made an industry out of the avoidance of controversy and personal responsibility while at the table. Oh, you didn't intend to pocket that ball?, no problem! The integrity of the game suffers, but the league runs smoothly without so many pesky rules.

There HAS to be one that covers the intentional multiple hits like this, right? or you could follow through and disrupt the entire table like Zoro!

Great Shot!!!!!!!!!

I see this in the woman's league all the time. Whoever breaks, has a lousy break and hardly any balls spread out. So the next player comes up and just slams the balls in the cluster again to break them up.


This is a good thing. Why play a rack full of clusters for 20 minutes when all you need is the ram shot and end the game in 5 minutes.


There are other reasons a player would do this, but I will not reveal any secrets about that. It is part of the game and a strategy.:thumbup:

hang-the-9 said:

No? Not even on someone sweeping balls around with the side of the cue? So if I have all my balls on the table, the other guy only has the 8, I can walk up to the table, and just herd some balls round the 8 with my cue not even hitting the cueball so the other guy can't make it and just give him ball in hand? That is OK in the APA?

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The balls get respotted to where the opponent thinks they were, per the rulebook.

I don't understand the logic of citing BCA or WPA rules when the OP stated they're playing by APA rules. It's like me arguing and citing NJ traffic laws with a New York City cop for making a right hand turn at a red (which is perfectly legal in other areas, just not NYC).

Mitchxout said:

I 100% agree with you but the APA doesn't. :nono:

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ctyhntr said:

I don't understand the logic of citing BCA or WPA rules when the OP stated they're playing by APA rules. It's like me arguing and citing NJ traffic laws with a New York City cop for making a right hand turn at a red (which is perfectly legal in other areas, just not NYC).

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This is more akin to a driver driving though a red light because it was slowing him down, some things are not good to do no matter where you are. Certain things should be a foul no matter what other rule modifications are used. Allowing re-arranging the playing field using illegal hits is just silly to not have a severe penalty for. It's like playing chess and being able to move pieces around whenever and however you want. The game depends on certain basic guidelines to function. You start removing rules and soon it's no longer the same game. It's like the rules that some baseball youth programs use where there are no outs or scores or strikes. It's just a bunch of kids running around with sticks while tossing balls around randomly, not baseball.

Is the APA pool or a bunch of beer belly drunk guys with sticks randomly re-arranging plastic spheres around a surface?

This is the type of stuff that drives good players nuts when they play leagues or "bar" rules tournaments.

hang-the-9 said:

This is more akin to a driver driving though a red light because it was slowing him down, some things are not good to do no matter where you are. Certain things should be a foul no matter what other rule modifications are used. Allowing re-arranging the playing field using illegal hits is just silly to not have a severe penalty for.

This is the type of stuff that drives good players nuts when they play leagues or "bar" rules tournaments.

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The APA is not aimed at "good players" - it is aimed at true beginners.

ideologist said:

The APA is not aimed at "good players" - it is aimed at true beginners.

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Yes, but they are beginners at "something", and that something should be the game of pool, not "pool lite". A new player in chess is not allowed to just move any piece how they like just because it may be harder for them to play than if they could just move any piece like a queen. A knight still moves like a knight or it's not chess anymore, at least not chess in any form of competition. You need a basic rule set of a sport/game or it ends up being pee wee soccer where half the kids run around randomly or look at bugs, the other half all run in a single line behind whoever has the ball.

hang-the-9 said:

Yes, but they are beginners at "something", and that something should be the game of pool, not "pool lite". A new player in chess is not allowed to just move any piece how they like just because it may be harder for them to play than if they could just move any piece like a queen. A knight still moves like a knight or it's not chess anymore, at least not chess in any form of competition. You need a basic rule set of a sport/game or it ends up being pee wee soccer where half the kids run around randomly or look at bugs, the other half all run in a single line behind whoever has the ball.

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Watch a team of APA 2's and you'll see the bug watchers of pool. They want a social halfway fun outing, not serious pool.

ideologist said:

Watch a team of APA 2's and you'll see the bug watchers of pool. They want a social halfway fun outing, not serious pool.

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That gave me a really funny visual LOL.

I guess I just need to take deep breaths are repeat "APA is not real pool, APA is not real pool".

Sometimes I feel like Eddie did in The Hustler when he was saying "I just wanted to show those punks what the game is like when it's great". Must be how real basketball players would have felt if they ever watched my group of 5' 6" jewish white boys play "baskeball" LOL

It's not just a APA thing. The BCA,ACS and Valley have had this ,,no push shot foul rule before.
I have seen them change it back and forth through the years. So much so,,I can't tell you who has the rule going at any time anymore.

If the balls are frozen or even close together. The player can shoot right at the OB and no foul can be called ,,between them balls and the stick.

But if other balls are moved by the stick. It is certainly a foul.

I have seen new player hit a frozen ball,head on and foul badly. But they just cant imagine how it was a foul.

And I have seen great players,that know a foul is hard to avoid. But because of this rule,,they just hit the cue,,,foul,,and continue shooting!!

I agree with the analogy of APA being a baseball youth program. There are so many similarities. Majority of the games is played on bar tables, not 9 footers. Regulation distance is 60' from pitching mound to the batter. Yet, many fields for kids have pitching mounds at 45'.

Imagine a 16 year old still playing in little league with 8 year olds, because there is no other opportunity around. Meaning no higher skilled leagues around (BCA, TAP, etc). This is the situation we have when there is no other league except APA (SL2 and SL7s). If there were other leagues around, I'm sure people would move on and up to higher skill leagues as they get better.

APA is targeted towards beginners and social players. My experience with APA league pool reminds me of The Bad News Bears (with Walter Matthau, not the remake). Many of the people I encounter in league pool are just like characters from the movie. Ranging from the ultra compeitive Vic Morrow (coach of the Yankees), to the SL7/8 on my team (Jackie Earl Haley), and the socials players from work (SL2, Tanner, Olgivie and Lupus).

Excuse me while I contemplate suggesting new team shirts for my teammates; Chico Bail Bonds

hang-the-9 said:

This is more akin to a driver driving though a red light because it was slowing him down, some things are not good to do no matter where you are. Certain things should be a foul no matter what other rule modifications are used. Allowing re-arranging the playing field using illegal hits is just silly to not have a severe penalty for. It's like playing chess and being able to move pieces around whenever and however you want. The game depends on certain basic guidelines to function. You start removing rules and soon it's no longer the same game. It's like the rules that some baseball youth programs use where there are no outs or scores or strikes. It's just a bunch of kids running around with sticks while tossing balls around randomly, not baseball.

Is the APA pool or a bunch of beer belly drunk guys with sticks randomly re-arranging plastic spheres around a surface?

This is the type of stuff that drives good players nuts when they play leagues or "bar" rules tournaments.

Click to expand...

hang-the-9 said:

Is the APA pool or a bunch of beer belly drunk guys with sticks randomly re-arranging plastic spheres around a surface?

This is the type of stuff that drives good players nuts when they play leagues or "bar" rules tournaments.

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Short answer? Yes. But that's not the only bunch, there's, the social bunch, the bunch that will bowl when this session ends, the bunch that's way to serious, the bunch that are really pretty good, and so on...
That raking the table thing, as long as you don't touch the cue ball or interrupt the cue ball path during a shot it's not a foul, just put the balls back

In the situation the OP describes I would consider that unsportsmanlike but the question at that point would be "Is it worth arguing over"? In APA sometimes you have to pick your battles.

In regards to push shots, as someone posted, the APA rule says they are too hard to call. Imagine my surprise when we went to Vegas in August and the refs were calling push shots. They warned us in the captain's meeting but since most of my players have no idea what that is, at least one guy got called on it. The ref told me if a player jacked the cue up or shot low and off to the side he would not call it, but the player hit center ball or higher, or if the CB followed the OB forward, he would call it.

In Miami dade apa there is no illegal push shot. Basically, if you elevate, its not a push. I still remember the first session I played apa and i would leave my opponent stuck to his ball and id see them jack up and fire away HARD. Both the cueball and the object ball would take off at the same speed and go three or four rails around the table. I was aghast at such a blatant foul being perfectly fine.

Fast forward now three years later and I find myself glad they allow this. Ive sat and practiced at my house a lil bit on trying to get an understanding of how the balls react when you push through and ive now used that shot against my opponents to make balls or to play safe. The other day it came up and I fired in a bank and took the cueball the same way, just missing the side pocket to follow (push follow haha) downtable for position.

When in Rome....

uwate said:

When in Rome....

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Yes indeed.

There has never been a push shot called in my local area APA that I am aware of. My LO might have been informed that they would be calling it at the Nats but he's not real good about communicating.

The push through frozen balls is allowed in APA and as far as the cue stick is involved, you can only have a cue ball foul as I recall.

Therefore, if the cue stick contacts other balls it is not considered a foul.

As crazy as it sounds, Jamming your cue through a frozen shot and moving multiple balls may not qualify as a foul.

BCA is similar when it comes to cue ball fouls where the cue stick is concerned.

I had an opponent use a bridge to shoot over my ball almost frozen to his object ball.

His cue tip drove through the edge of my ball as he struck the shot.

I called a foul since he hit my ball first but the league manager said it was not a foul due to the cue ball foul rule.

It still doesn't make sense to me.

maxeypad2007 said:

If a player simply goes up to the table where the cue ball is frozen to another ball in APA 8-ball and just jams the stick through the balls to break them up is it a foul or something else beyond a foul?

even though everyone around the guy said "thats going to be a foul" it was obviously an intentional foul playing a weaker player who can't run out.

I just assume this is a foul and the other player gets ball in hand. One guy one the sidelines said this is blatant unsportsmanlike conduct (which is highly debatable).

What is the correct call here? We know its a foul but is it anything else?

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I feel like we're getting off topic. Back to the original question - What's the correct call. Without an uninterested 3rd party (referee) watching the shot the issue of whether or not it's a foul is left to the descretion of the shooter. Generally, in an obvious situation such as the one described the shooter would be in agreement that a foul had occured, but without that referee, nothing is for certain and if the non shooting wasn't bright enough to protect themselves by finding a watcher then whether or not it's a foul, once again, is totally up to the shooter. As to the issue of a sportsmanship violation, without agressive physical contact, like a punch thrown, there is no blatant sportsmanship violation. If you believe there is a sportsmanship violation, it should be reported to the league office. If you believe the violation changed the outcome of the match, record the alledged violation on the back of the score sheet, don't sign the (either) score sheet, and send in your protest fee, the league office will let you know if you are correct. If the match could not be completed due to the violation and it was not foreftied report the situation to the league office and request a resolution.

maxeypad2007 said:

If a player simply goes up to the table where the cue ball is frozen to another ball in APA 8-ball and just jams the stick through the balls to break them up is it a foul or something else beyond a foul?

even though everyone around the guy said "thats going to be a foul" it was obviously an intentional foul playing a weaker player who can't run out.

I just assume this is a foul and the other player gets ball in hand. One guy one the sidelines said this is blatant unsportsmanlike conduct (which is highly debatable).

What is the correct call here? We know its a foul but is it anything else?

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some people will never get it..