Is this slop?

Paul Schofield · Dec 10, 2013

Is this slop?

Your opponent misses the 5 and this is your leave. You call the 8 ball in a particular pocket and it goes in. Is this slop?

If you call a number and place a bet on a roulette wheel and it comes in, are you lucky? After all, it is your intention. You called it.

Here is my take: I think it takes far more skill than luck to hit the ball. Once the ball is hit, it requires far, far more luck to pocket the ball. I think that this is, for the most part, a luck (slop) shot.

BeiberLvr · Dec 10, 2013

My thoughts are that any shot that goes in, but can't be made 5 out of 10 times or better is slop. However, I do believe there is such a thing as skill slop. So even if someone can't make the 5 in your diagram 50% of the time, I still think there is a level of skill needed to make it, even if a little luck is involved.

seven_7days · Dec 10, 2013

You comparison...apples and oranges man.

You call the 5 ball in a particular pocket and it goes in because YOU participated in the influence of the outcome with intention and enough skill to cause this.

If you place a bet on a roulette you have NOTHING to with whether or not you hit or miss.

Paul Schofield · Dec 10, 2013

BeiberLvr said:
My thoughts are that any shot that goes in, but can't be made 5 out of 10 times or better is slop. However, I do believe there is such a thing as skill slop. So even if someone can't make the 5 in your diagram 50% of the time, I still think there is a level of skill needed to make it, even if a little luck is involved.

Very good. Bob Byrne had an identical response. He immediately responded with a 50% rule of thumb.

So, can I assume, without any practice on this exact shot, in the middle of a game, you would call this slop?

Paul Schofield · Dec 10, 2013

seven_7days said:
You comparison...apples and oranges man.

You call the 5 ball in a particular pocket and it goes in because YOU participated in the influence of the outcome with intention and enough skill to cause this.

If you place a bet on a roulette you have NOTHING to with whether or not you hit or miss.

I gave my analysis in the form of a question. Well, what is your answer? Is this more skill than slop or more slop than skill?

Furthermore, I think that the Pool Gods have more to do with pocketing the 8 than a good player does.

Rackemep · Dec 10, 2013

If my opponent calls the 8 and kicks it directly into its intended pocket, then no not slop...maybe lucky or low percentage but not slop...now if my opponent kicks the 8 ball, it misses its intended pocket, gos off the 5 ball or something then yes slop...

(((Satori))) · Dec 10, 2013

Paul Schofield said:
Very good. Bob Byrne had an identical response. He immediately responded with a 50% rule of thumb.

So, can I assume, without any practice on this exact shot, in the middle of a game, you would call this slop?

How do you determine if the 50% ruleeven applies to a specific shot?

Even if you are going to base a ddcision of what is or isnt slop based on the 50% rule... how do you determine the % of something that doesnt have fixed odds?

HawaiianEye · Dec 10, 2013

Paul Schofield said:
I gave my analysis in the form of a question. Well, what is your answer? Is this more skill than slop or more slop than skill?

Furthermore, I think that the Pool Gods have more to do with pocketing the 8 than a good player does.

I would say the same thing. A level of skill is required to hit the ball, but to hit it perfectly to go in the pocket you called is WAY more Pool God than skill.

Rackemep · Dec 10, 2013

If you're playing call ball, call pocket then its a mute point and it doesn't matter weather the ball wen 6 rails bounced of the five and then double kissed in the called pocket off of the QB it still counts...

I dont understand the 50% rule...there are shots that I know are less than 50% for me but in a push come to shove situation that I have to go for the gusto does it mean that I slopped a ball in even if my intended results came out exactly as I had hoped on say a 25% shot...I think not...It may not be the smartest thing to do and I'm not saying that the kick in diagram is a 25% shot for me but the "50% rule" makes no sense to me

Shaft · Dec 10, 2013

If the called ball falls in the called pocket it is not slop, no matter how difficult or unlikely the shot is.

Throughout the table there are an infinite number of shots with an infinitely smooth spectrum of miss/make probabilities.

If making a low probability shot is slop, then making any and every shot is slop, since all shots have some probability of being missed.

If you were shooting at an easy (90% makable) cut, and it falls as called, not slop.
If you were shooting at an incredibly thin (10% makable) cut, and it falls as called, not slop.
If you were shooting at a 3-rail (1% makable) kick, and it falls as called, not slop.

Banks · Dec 10, 2013

So, if I'm 40% on a bank, it's slop or luck if I make it? Not buying it. When Efren z-kicked his famous 8, that was slop? Well, heck, I guess baseball players are just lucky to get a hit. Sounds like somebody lost the above rack on a great shot.

(((Satori))) · Dec 10, 2013

Seven_7days is right. The situations are apples to oranges. There is no way to determine the make % for a specific shot at a specific moment because skill level fluctuates. A player in the zone will have a much higher percentage rate than when he is shooting poorly.

If the player called the shot and made it then its not slop. Even if you are wanting to apply the 50% rule... who are you to say that at that moment he wasnt totally feeling the shot and with his confidence he couldnt have maxe that shot at that moment 80% of the time?

ScottK · Dec 10, 2013

If a 50% chance of success is the threshold by which we determine a shot to be slop or not, then I slop in almost every ball I ever shoot.

Straightpool_99 · Dec 10, 2013

...................

krupa · Dec 10, 2013

If he took his time and aimed the shot, then it's skill.

If he walked up and said, "I don't know... this corner, I guess" and then took a wild swing, it's sloppy.

I know a guy who's pretty deadly with kick shots. I wouldn't bet against him if he had to make the 8 in that situation.

DAVE_M · Dec 10, 2013

If it's call pocket, it's not slop.

It's slop when Jimmy Bobby Ray wacks a 6 rail bank off 4 other balls and it falls in a random pocket.

CreeDo · Dec 10, 2013

Slop and luck are not synonyms.
Two different words to describe two different concepts.

All slop shots require some luck.
But all lucky events are not "slop shots".

There are numerous examples of luck that don't involve slop or even making a ball.
For example making a near-0% shot, or missing but having it bank in anyway.

I have a feeling the argument you're trying for is something like:

-Making a tough kick is more luck than skill
-We could redefine the word luck to mean slop since they're semi-related
-Therefore even under call-pocket rules, there's slop.
-Therefore let's get rid of the call pocket rule since you can't eliminate slop anyway.

Is that where you were headed?

3andstop · Dec 10, 2013

My opinion is ... if you choose to play a carnival game, expect carnival results.

JBB2388 · Dec 10, 2013

3andstop said:
My opinion is ... if you choose to play a carnival game, expect carnival results.

Exactly! that looks like an easy out if you ask me anyway.

Ralph Kramden · Dec 10, 2013

Slop or no slop.. Playing the 8 ball you must contact the 8 first.. or you're going to lose.

If you contact the 8.. and it goes into a called pocket.. it's not slop.. Walk away proudly.

Is this slop?

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