One Pocket Rule clarification?

MikeyFields

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
We're having a debate in the room tonight about a hypothetical situation in one pocket and a quick google search yields no answer.

In the event where both players need one ball (say a 9-5 spot), and the incoming shooter makes a ball in each pocket with one shot, what is the ruling? Most agree that it would go to the shooter. Others are saying the shooter loses, and yet another says it's down to the ball that drops first(which seems to be that it could be argued quite easily).
 

J SCHWARZ

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
shooter wins.

covered in complete rules from onepocket.org
3.2 In the event that a player pockets both their own game winning ball, and their opponent’s game winning ball, both on the same legal stroke, then the shooting player wins. There are no ‘ties’, and it does not matter which ball drops first, as long as they both drop as a result of the same stroke.
 

MikeyFields

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
shooter wins.

covered in complete rules from onepocket.org
3.2 In the event that a player pockets both their own game winning ball, and their opponent’s game winning ball, both on the same legal stroke, then the shooting player wins. There are no ‘ties’, and it does not matter which ball drops first, as long as they both drop as a result of the same stroke.

I must have missed that on onepocket.org..I looked there first before posting.
 

SJDinPHX

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
We're having a debate in the room tonight about a hypothetical situation in one pocket and a quick google search yields no answer.

In the event where both players need one ball (say a 9-5 spot), and the incoming shooter makes a ball in each pocket with one shot, what is the ruling? Most agree that it would go to the shooter. Others are saying the shooter loses, and yet another says it's down to the ball that drops first(which seems to be that it could be argued quite easily).

I don't think Mr Schwarz is correct in his ruling, per 1P.org...Maybe he could link it for us!

I doubt you will find a clear interpretation of any rules, in a game where one player is spotting another!..All the rules I've ever seen written for one pocket, (or any other game) are contingent upon an evenly played match.. (ie; in 1P, first one to get 8 balls wins) Thus, it would be impossible to make both game balls at once! You won't find an answer..my guess would be, 'biggest guy' wins!!! ;)
 
Last edited:

SJDinPHX

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
We're having a debate in the room tonight about a hypothetical situation in one pocket and a quick google search yields no answer.

You may find an answer, if you can find a site dedicated to 'prop games'! :confused: :p
 
Last edited:

MikeyFields

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I don't think Mr Schwarz is correct in his ruling, per 1P.org...Maybe he could link it for us!

I doubt you will find a clear interpretation of any rules, in a game where one player is spotting another!..All the rules I've ever seen written for one pocket, (or any other game) are contingent upon an evenly played match.. (ie; in 1P, first one to get 8 balls wins) Thus, it would be impossible to make both game balls at once! You won't find an answer..my guess would be, 'biggest guy' wins!!! ;)

http://www.onepocket.org/one_pocket_pool_rules.htm

3. Continuing play
3.1 A player’s inning continues only as long they pocket a ball or balls in their own pocket on a legal stroke. While it is perfectly legal to pocket a ball in a neutral pocket or in the opponent’s pocket, doing so does not entitle the shooter to continue their inning, unless on the same stroke they legally pocket a ball into their own pocket. Any balls pocketed either accidentally or intentionally into the opponent’s pocket are counted for the opponent, unless on the same stroke, either the cue ball pocket scratches or jumps off the table.

3.2 In the event that a player pockets both their own game winning ball, and their opponent’s game winning ball, both on the same legal stroke, then the shooting player wins. There are no ‘ties’, and it does not matter which ball drops first, as long as they both drop as a result of the same stroke.
 

MikeyFields

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Onepocket.org elaborates on handicaps in:

1. Object of the game
One Pocket is a game for two players or two teams, where each player or team can only score into one of the two corner pockets on the foot end of the table, while the other player or team can only score into the other corner pocket at the foot end of the table. The other four pockets are neutral pockets, and any balls pocketed in a neutral pocket are spotted at the end of the shooter’s inning. There is no requirement to ‘call your shot’ in One Pocket, and no special order or significance to any numbered object balls. The first player (or team) to legally score eight balls into their own pocket wins the game, whether they pocket their game-winning ball by their own shot, or as a result of their opponent’s shot. The game may be handicapped either by agreement between players or as designated by a tournament director. Standard handicaps are created by adjusting the required winning score for either one or both players, either for all breaks or for specified player's breaks.
 

SJDinPHX

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
http://www.onepocket.org/one_pocket_pool_rules.htm

3. Continuing play
3.1 A player’s inning continues only as long they pocket a ball or balls in their own pocket on a legal stroke. While it is perfectly legal to pocket a ball in a neutral pocket or in the opponent’s pocket, doing so does not entitle the shooter to continue their inning, unless on the same stroke they legally pocket a ball into their own pocket. Any balls pocketed either accidentally or intentionally into the opponent’s pocket are counted for the opponent, unless on the same stroke, either the cue ball pocket scratches or jumps off the table.

3.2 In the event that a player pockets both their own game winning ball, and their opponent’s game winning ball, both on the same legal stroke, then the shooting player wins. There are no ‘ties’, and it does not matter which ball drops first, as long as they both drop as a result of the same stroke.

Mikey..Please show me how that can possibly apply to two players, playing a normal, even up game?...That rule would ONLY apply to a 'prop game', of some sort, where weight is involved!..Any rules drafted under those conditions, are NOT rules per say, and will always be subject to conjecture, interpretation, or argument! :cool:

Steve Booth (at 1P.org) is the author of those rules, and I can almost quote them ver batum!..Steve came up with them strictly for the benefit of the gamblers among us!...He has often expressed concern, that they may not be equitable, or even fair, in all situations!..He has always encouraged everyone to agree to the grey areas before the coin is flipped! Would you not agree, this is a very grey area? :rolleyes:

PS..My point is not about whether "shooter wins", or not! (which by the way, I lean towards 'he does')..It is about the fact that there are NO legitimate, clear cut rules in place, to cover that occurance, because it can only happen in a 'prop game'!
 
Last edited:

iusedtoberich

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Mikey..Please show me how that can possibly apply to two players, playing a normal, even up game?...That rule would ONLY apply to a 'prop game', of some sort, where weight is involved!..Any rules drafted under those conditions, are NOT rules per say, and will always be subject to conjecture, interpretation, or argument! :cool:

Steve Booth (at 1P.org) is the author of those rules, and I can almost quote them ver batum!..Steve came up with them strictly for the benefit of the gamblers among us!...He has often expressed concern, that they may not be equitable, or even fair, in all situations!..He has always encouraged everyone to agree to the "grey areas", before the coin is flipped!..Would you not agree, this is a very grey area? :rolleyes:

PS..My point is not about whether "shooter wins", or not! (which by the way, I lean towards 'he does')..It is about the fact that there are NO legitimate rules in place, to cover that eventuality!

A few comments:
1. The rules at onepocket.org are the most legitimate set of one pocket rules on the planet, imo:)
2. in 14.1, (non-handicapped) the same situation could arise. I havent read 14.1 rules in a long time, but I'd bet anything the shooter wins if he pockets both his own and his opponents game winning ball in the same legal stroke. Why would 1 pocket be any different?
3. In 8 ball, the exact scenario cannot occur, but a similar one can. The shooter can pocket his group, and the opponents group in the same legal stroke. He continues shooting. Why would it be any different in one pocket?
 

SJDinPHX

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
A few comments:
1. The rules at onepocket.org are the most legitimate set of one pocket rules on the planet, imo:)
2. in 14.1, (non-handicapped) the same situation could arise. I havent read 14.1 rules in a long time, but I'd bet anything the shooter wins if he pockets both his own and his opponents game winning ball in the same legal stroke. Why would 1 pocket be any different?
3. In 8 ball, the exact scenario cannot occur, but a similar one can. The shooter can pocket his group, and the opponents group in the same legal stroke. He continues shooting. Why would it be any different in one pocket?

IUTBR..This is getting out of hand!...Please re-read post #8, and you should see where we differ!..You need only to apply the long accepted, written rules of "pocket billiards" (aka pool) in general!..No addendum, or modification of those rules, (or for any specific game) can rightfully supercede them no matter how good they may sound, to any of us!.....Especially not to simply accommodate a 'prop game'..Rules, is rules, is rules, is rules! ;)

Night all!
 
Last edited:

MikeyFields

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Mikey..Please show me how that can possibly apply to two players, playing a normal, even up game?...That rule would ONLY apply to a 'prop game', of some sort, where weight is involved!..Any rules drafted under those conditions, are NOT rules per say, and will always be subject to conjecture, interpretation, or argument! :cool:

Steve Booth (at 1P.org) is the author of those rules, and I can almost quote them ver batum!..Steve came up with them strictly for the benefit of the gamblers among us!...He has often expressed concern, that they may not be equitable, or even fair, in all situations!..He has always encouraged everyone to agree to the grey areas before the coin is flipped! Would you not agree, this is a very grey area? :rolleyes:

PS..My point is not about whether "shooter wins", or not! (which by the way, I lean towards 'he does')..It is about the fact that there are NO legitimate, clear cut rules in place, to cover that occurance, because it can only happen in a 'prop game'!

It cant happen in an even game and I never stated it could..

A handicapped game is a "prop" game? I didnt specify whether this is gambling or in a tournament. Merely a hypothetical situiation where we were looking for a general consensus. And I'd wager that the general consensus would follow 1pocket.orgs rules. We're well aware of the many grey areas in all games when it comes down to gambling. At the end of the day its all up for "interpretation". The rules can be made in any fashion 2 players agree upon, as well as what any tournament director decides before the start of play.
 

pdcue

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Mikey..Please show me how that can possibly apply to two players, playing a normal, even up game?...That rule would ONLY apply to a 'prop game', of some sort, where weight is involved!..Any rules drafted under those conditions, are NOT rules per say, and will always be subject to conjecture, interpretation, or argument! :cool:

Steve Booth (at 1P.org) is the author of those rules, and I can almost quote them ver batum!..Steve came up with them strictly for the benefit of the gamblers among us!...He has often expressed concern, that they may not be equitable, or even fair, in all situations!..He has always encouraged everyone to agree to the grey areas before the coin is flipped! Would you not agree, this is a very grey area? :rolleyes:

PS..My point is not about whether "shooter wins", or not! (which by the way, I lean towards 'he does')..It is about the fact that there are NO legitimate, clear cut rules in place, to cover that occurance, because it can only happen in a 'prop game'!

Back when this was still America - didn't you take balls off the table to ensure
this could not happen?

Dale
 

easy-e

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
A few comments:
1. The rules at onepocket.org are the most legitimate set of one pocket rules on the planet, imo:)
2. in 14.1, (non-handicapped) the same situation could arise. I havent read 14.1 rules in a long time, but I'd bet anything the shooter wins if he pockets both his own and his opponents game winning ball in the same legal stroke. Why would 1 pocket be any different?
3. In 8 ball, the exact scenario cannot occur, but a similar one can. The shooter can pocket his group, and the opponents group in the same legal stroke. He continues shooting. Why would it be any different in one pocket?

I'm confused about your #2 regarding 14.1. How can a player pocket his winning ball AND his opponent's winning ball in the same stroke? If he stroked the ball, aren't the pocketed balls HIS points?
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
There is no situation or rule in pool that requires you to know which of two balls went into the pocket first. Not in any game.
 

iusedtoberich

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'm confused about your #2 regarding 14.1. How can a player pocket his winning ball AND his opponent's winning ball in the same stroke? If he stroked the ball, aren't the pocketed balls HIS points?

Ha, you are correct! I botched that and had a brain fart and had too much one hole on my mind.
 

Cornerman

Cue Author...Sometimes
Gold Member
Silver Member
Mikey..Please show me how that can possibly apply to two players, playing a normal, even up game?...That rule would ONLY apply to a 'prop game', of some sort, where weight is involved!..Any rules drafted under those conditions, are NOT rules per say, and will always be subject to conjecture, interpretation, or argument! :cool:

Steve Booth (at 1P.org) is the author of those rules, and I can almost quote them ver batum!..Steve came up with them strictly for the benefit of the gamblers among us!...He has often expressed concern, that they may not be equitable, or even fair, in all situations!..He has always encouraged everyone to agree to the grey areas before the coin is flipped! Would you not agree, this is a very grey area? :rolleyes:

PS..My point is not about whether "shooter wins", or not! (which by the way, I lean towards 'he does')..It is about the fact that there are NO legitimate, clear cut rules in place, to cover that occurance, because it can only happen in a 'prop game'!
I don't understand your objection, SJD. The original poster gave a specific handicapped game as an example. What is YOUR opinion on what should happen in that specific example?

Every gambling and handicapped matchup can't go through every line of possibilities before they play. Something is bound to come up that they didn't think of. It happens. If there's already a rule (yes, via 1pocket.org) that covers this EXACT situation, what is your objection? That because it's a prop game, and even though the one pocket.org rules state that one pocket can undergo different handicapping situation, that the rules are null and void???

The only site dedicated to one pocket got the most knowledgeable one pocket players to look at, modify, and agree upon a proposed set of rules, and we should just ignore them and say, "agree upon the gray areas."

Rule 3.2, since it's written, is supposed to take this situation out of the gray area. Or do you simply disagree with the rule? In my humble opinion, this is the best written rule on this exact situation.
 

1pocket

Steve Booth
Gold Member
Silver Member
Yes, I did compile the rules for One Pocket for OnePocket.org, but I did not do it just off the top of my own head -- I worked really hard to get input from every major One Pocket tournament director I could contact, and I referenced all the prior written One Pocket rules I could find (not many -- but there were some) and I worked with Grady Mathews, Freddy the Beard and all the other members of OnePocket.org to fine tune the rules.

No, I don't consider the typical ball-count handicapping in One Pocket to be any kind of "proposition game" at all -- I would consider normal ball-count handicaps to be a totally normal part of One Pocket play. If the ball-counts got really odd or were mixed with gaff handicaps such as shooting one-handed, using the bridge every shot, etc., etc. -- that would be a different story.

Interestingly, the oldest published rules I found for One Pocket were the rules developed for Johnston City and distributed by the Jansco Brothers beginning in 1961, and guess what?? The exact rule you guys are asking about was already there!! It would not have ever come up in the Johnston City tournaments because there never was any handicapping in those tournaments. However, everyone knows that the side gambling matches were just as much a part of the Johnston City tradition as was the tournament (some would say even bigger!), and certainly the kind of handicap situations for which that rule was written could have come up (way back when), hence it appears in the earliest modern rules I have found.
 
Top