Surprising results Part II

Dan White

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Last time I posted about hitting a combination that gave me a perfect break shot angle. Today I had a similar shot, but I think this one is actually repeatable and is something to definitely be aware of. I'm not sure I'd play for this intentionally, but it is worth setting up and hitting a few times to see what kind of success rate you get.

I was on the wrong side of the 14 and hit the shot with high follow. The 8 ball retained more energy than the cue ball and it hit the side rail and rebounded. I believe the cue ball just died where it is diagrammed.

I got a nice result as diagrammed on the side rail. I was able to get a nice break and continue into the next rack.
 

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rikdee

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Last time I posted about hitting a combination that gave me a perfect break shot angle. Today I had a similar shot, but I think this one is actually repeatable and is something to definitely be aware of. I'm not sure I'd play for this intentionally, but it is worth setting up and hitting a few times to see what kind of success rate you get.

I was on the wrong side of the 14 and hit the shot with high follow. The 8 ball retained more energy than the cue ball and it hit the side rail and rebounded. I believe the cue ball just died where it is diagrammed.

I got a nice result as diagrammed on the side rail. I was able to get a nice break and continue into the next rack.

Did the 8 ball drive to the rail and then come out to its shown position?
 

michael4

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
according to the pic, you would have to hit the 8 flush (head on) to move it in the direction shown, which would leave the CB where the 8 was originally (well if I tried that shot anyway) :sorry:

not wanting to bump the balls, I would try to bank the 14 into the opposite side pocket (out of desperation), and keep the CB parallel to the 8 ball....
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
according to the pic, you would have to hit the 8 flush (head on) to move it in the direction shown, which would leave the CB where the 8 was originally (well if I tried that shot anyway) :sorry:

not wanting to bump the balls, I would try to bank the 14 into the opposite side pocket (out of desperation), and keep the CB parallel to the 8 ball....
If you use follow and the equipment is not sticky, you can follow after hitting the 8 and get up-table as shown. The exact positions of the balls are important.
 

Dan White

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
@rikdee, yes if you reread my post I mention that the 8 goes to the rail and out.

@michael4, this drawing software isn't the best so it is hard to get things exact. You just have to read the post in the spirit intended and not analyze the drawing too closely. You can set it up and play around with it too see what actually works.

Thanks for the replies!
 

Straightpool_99

I see dead balls
Silver Member
On these kinds of shots, you can use sidespin to control the behaviour of the cueball and the 8 ball, especially at low speeds. I've wanted to try to explain this in my thread about creating breakballs, but it's very complicated to explain (but easy to show on the table). If you are hitting the ball kind of full, you can use left spin to push the 8 ball down and right spin to hold it (push it more up). Naturally using left spin will also lead to the cueball running past the 8, for more angle, while the opposite spin will tend to keep the cueball from running (slowing it down). Left spin in this case becomes "outside spin" when the cueball hits the 8, even if it's inside when playing the 6. It's kind of complicated, because you have to consider both the behaviour of the 8 as well as the cueball.

Let's say you have this shot and you see that at the angle you have, the cueball is going to run way past the 8 after hitting it, bouncing out off the rail, and probably leaving you no angle, or the angle opposite of what you want: Try to hit the shot slow with right hand spin, and you may be able to hold the ball. For the opposite situation you use left spin. Heavy left spin will also help you a bit on certain angles because (obviously) when the ball hits the rail it will go left at a wider angle, keeping it closer to the rail than a no english shot. If you hit it like a gorilla, this does no longer apply. You can increase your margin of error on the shot this way, using the slow spin to give you a flatter cueball line along the rail.

It's very hard to show these things to certain people, because they lack the feel and the ability to hit the rail at the slowest possible speed with a lot of spin. They are going to muscle the ball with a rigid death-grip over and over and then say it's impossible. It also doesn't help that they have been told that english only affects the balls rebound angles off rails and not off balls. They don't realize that at slow speeds the sidespin becomes very important for the behaviour of the balls.. Try to explain these kinds of shots to a snooker player, unfamiliar with pool rails and who constantly slams every shot in...That is definition of frustrating! I tried to teach someone a delicate shot like this not to long ago, but I had to give up, because he had zero feel and finesse on soft shots. He shot straight, and he did understand what I did when I shot it, but he was unable to replicate it.

Hope these explanations are at least somewhat clear (I tried).
 
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Dan White

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Hope these explanations are at least somewhat clear (I tried).

I think a student has to be at a level where they can absorb what you are saying. Try teaching algebra to a 5 year old.

I took one lesson with Rempe years ago and he mentioned the same idea, about using spin to bump/throw a ball in a slightly different direction with just enough spin left when hitting the rail to give it a little motion in the direction you need it to go.
 

michael4

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
On these kinds of shots, you can use sidespin to control the behaviour of the cueball and the 8 ball, especially at low speeds.

Hope these explanations are at least somewhat clear (I tried).

I follow what you're saying, but its above my pay grade.....I'm just getting to the level of trying to bump balls when I dont have a realistic break ball, but I try to do it early, because I dont control it well, and can't predict what I will end up with......

If I get down the last two balls, as in the drawing, I have already messed up my position play and I take my lumps :)
 

Dan White

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If I get down the last two balls, as in the drawing, I have already messed up my position play and I take my lumps :)

BUT, sometimes it is the knowledge of shots like these that separate the good from the great. I recall a video somewhere in which Jack Colavita gets in trouble. He ends up bumping a ball into the rail to get position similar to this. I think such shots involve a little luck, but carry no downside. You can still play safe if it doesn't work out.
 
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